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  1. Thanks Dave,

    A great critique of this paper thin economic policy that Key/Joyce/English have composed using all our media sources to sell, us a dead rat once or a few times before such as when they tried as they presented the disaster known as TTPA now pronounced dead on arrival.

    So we consider this economic model will be dead before the end of this year also as the global economy heads for another deep recession/depression worse than the last 11yr one we had never even left!!!!

    1. Cheap oil helped counter the return of the TRPF in the post war boom but not by itself. Today oil is very cheap yet trillions in excess capital has to be destroyed in a crash (as in the devaluation of the value of fracking assets) before cheap oil makes a return to profitable production possible. We have to turn a crash into a revolution to survive.

  2. Dave, the first paragraph I was with you all the way until the last line “Marxists see all these signs as a vindication of Marx’s theory of crisis which predicts growing chaos and disequilibrium until the capitalist system breaks down and is replaced by a socialist system.”.

    It was about there when you went into the classic Marxist interpretation of capitalism that it began to wander. If as Marx says there is a crisis of capitalism and from that arises a socialist state then why after 200 years of industrial capitalism with multiple crises has this not occurred in an industrialized society? Now don’t get me wrong, I am no particular fan of capitalism and Marxist analysis of the cause of crisis seems reasonably plausible given the evidence, however the predicted outcome never seems to arrive. The beast never quite dies, in fact it seems very good at doing a Lazarus.

    I see you got the sectarian dig in (Bill Sutch being a Stalinist…sort of dubious but never let a good dig go by…..), so what I am reading appears to me to be a theological argument that brooks no parallel theories nor empirically contrary evidence. I’m going to suggest to you that the beast will not be slain according to the theory, and that the beast is fantastic at healing self inflicted wounds. New methods of killing it are required, and Marx is not one of them if you go by the record to date.

    The Marxist revolution has no missed the bus. I do have faith that the current corporatist state capital nexus aka fascism that dominates the worlds economy today is not sustainable, but neither is a statist socialist model. For much the same reason. Marx, Hobbes, Smith, Keynes et al were observers of huge growth in industrialisation that worked upon the growth imperative. No growth and the industrial system cannot sustain debts or profits. This is entirely based upon resource availability and in particular energy comsumption. We are in a finite world, ergo growth must at some point end ergo the system will fail. Lovely as a socialist state would be to replace this it is not going to be an economy that produces growth. I have read enough Marx to know that the concept of permanently static and declining economies were ever considered.

    Might I suggest that your considerable knowledge of Marxist method might not be entirely wasted if you were to utilise it as a tool to bring forward new theories of post peak resource post industrial economics and society. These are going to be far more necessary, and few are working on it. On the plus side it is the one huge blind spot in the beasts armour.

    1. Nick you missed climate catastrophe. That sets limits to future society way beyond resource depletion. If socialism has not yet succeeded then today it must succeed or we are all dead. Socialism is not a fixed model as in “the socialist state” held up as an impossible ideal/evil. It is about making human survival possible. Capitalism is in terminal crisis. We have to replace it to allocate scarce resources sustainably on the basis of a planned economy serving our basic needs. How that arises and what sorts of institutions are necessary to meet those objectives will be determined by the working majority, democratically, and collectively. In my book, that is socialism.

      1. I can appreciate that socialism may be a valid response but it will be very far from a Marxist planned economy. A more likely scenario is the long term sustainable economy that lasted up until the industrial era i.e one that ran within a solar energy budget with mainly local resources. Id contend that it is cheap concentrated energy that enables centralised planned economies. Without that energy relationship to production will still be a valid concept but may have more immediate and intimate inclusions. The historic dialectic will be shot.

        1. Since the time of the Russian Revolution there has been a big debate about the potential of socialist planning vs the market. Today it is obvious that the market has failed because the allocation of resources by capital has led to the destruction of nature including the working class.

          Genuine socialism means taking advantage of the most advanced technology developed under capitalism to allow the use of energy from the sun to be harnessed to a production system which plans production to meet the needs of all. This can overcome scarcity and prevent the re-emergence of a new ruling class of winners take all.

          The caricature of Stalin’s centralised planning was opposed at time by Trotsky because it was dictated from above to allow the parasitic bureaucracy to live off the labour of workers. Bureaucratic planning failed because it was not run by workers democracy. It had nothing to do with socialism let alone communism.

          So in summary the socialist centralisation we need to survive today would be based not on centralised authority dictating the allocation of resources, but the coordination of democratic decisions taken locally, regionally and nationally, to allocate necessary labour to production on the basis of agreed priorities.

          1. Sounds good Dave except it won’t happen for the same reason Stalin’s state planning failed. Even if localised it requires beaurocracy and coercion. It never ceases to amaze me that Trots dismiss Stalin as an apostate (he was a very committed Leninist Marxist intellectual: that’s what he wanted power for), and deny Trotsky’s role in creating and enforcing the Leninist state. At heart he was as cruelly calculating and responsible as Stalin for the resultant death tolls. More importantly both would have run a system based upon extreme coercion which is precisely why it failed and if implemented again would fail again.

          2. Hey Dave, I am about to ban myself voluntarily because I find this site somewhat like the RWNJ sites, except its LWNJs. I appreciate that we do not agree but your willingness to engage is somewhat refreshing. If you ever want a really good argument about why you are right and Im wrong get my email address from the moderators.

  3. We could follow Trostsky in the fashion that Chavez did. THIS time it will work. We’ll need to stock up on body bags first though, Trotskys don’t really have a place for those who disagree.

    Seriously though, trotting out Trotsky from 1938 is the path to victory for the left? Couldn’t figure out how to get Trotter in that sentence.

    1. “We could follow Trostsky in the fashion that Chavez did”

      Gawd, the old Charvez argument. Did Whaleoil teach you that one?
      Go look at the gini coefficient and look at Venezuela’s levels of inequality. They are more unequal than us. Charvez nationalised some oil and gave some money to the poor. If you think that was socialism, then you need to do some reading. Maybe it was the levels of equality that Bernie Sander’s is promoting, and therefore his definition of socialism. Or similar to a Nordic welfare state.

      What Charvez achieved in Venezuela is nothing close to what Marx proposed. Fox News is unreliable. Red-baiting capitalist utopians make me laugh. Thanks for the lolz. Try reading.

  4. These mini-crises like the one in 07/08 are a capitalist’s wet dream. I’ve got my fingers crossed for a massive depression, one that would make the Great Depression look like ‘economic headwinds’. When there’s a complete breakdown, then we can have some sort of revolution.

    Most people I know have nothing to lose, except perhaps our chains

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