A View from Afar – In this podcast, political scientist Paul Buchanan and Selwyn Manning analyse how it is now clear atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians is widespread, appears systematic, and may be coldly planned by Russian leaders as troops withdraw toward the east. But can justice be achieved?
The crimes committed in Ukraine could be defined by four categories:
- War crimes (which includes the targeting of civilians),
- Crimes against humanity (which crosses a scale because it is systematic and essentially focusses on individuals),
- Genocide (where groups are targeted),
- Crime of aggression (which is the waging of an illegal war).
This week, Professor of Law, Philippe Sands, of the University College London told PBS: “In the present circumstances where Russia has waged a war that is manifestly illegal, it is plain to me that the crime of aggression has been perpetrated. And, the significance of that crime is it is the only one with any degree of certainty that it reaches the top-table, Mr Putin, Mr Lavrov, the Defence Minister, senior military, senior intelligence, senior political leaders.
“With all the other crimes, the challenge that you have got is linking the terrible images that we have just seen with the leadership at the top. And, that can be very difficult.”
Professor Sands has joined around 100 others, including former leaders around the world, calling for a Special Criminal Tribunal, that would sit alongside the ICC in The Hague, and investigate in parallel the crime of aggression. (Ref. 14:31 PBS April 4, 2022, https://youtu.be/TbX8Wl4HEh4 )
Professor of Law, Yvonne McDermott Rees, of the University of Swansea told DW News: “Let’s say, theoretically we have a trial before the International Criminal Court, the ICC seeks to prosecute those who are deemed most responsible.
“And there are a number of modes of liability set out in statute of the International Criminal Court. These include ordering, inducing, soliciting these crimes to be committed. But importantly, in the case of Vladimir Putin, there is superior responsibility.” (Ref. DW, April 5, 2022, https://youtu.be/1xIOw21BUgc )
But as Paul Buchanan and Selwyn Manning will discuss; it is challenging in the extreme to bring a leader of a nuclear power to justice.
QUESTIONS:
- Were the atrocities identified a deliberate, systematic attempt to erase Ukrainian populations and culture?
- Were they crimes committed by troops so as to cover their retreat, by killing and leaving dead Ukrainians behind, so that the Ukrainian armed forces were forced to stop and to attend to them?
- What of enforcement capability, where authoritarian leaders will oppose any attempt to bring anyone but the lowest level “rogue” personnel to justice. Is it satisfactory if recourse and prosecution becomes a mostly Western (mostly European) affair?
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Im reminded of the Mad Hatters tea party where all sense is inverted.
The proposition of this article is that Russia IS committing atrocities. Not may be is, not isn’t. Is, is, is!!!
In a free democratic country the principle is innocent until found guilty. By way of evidence. Evidence that is beyond dispute.
I’m not pointing a finger either way, merely pointing out that Kangaroo court by media talking heads sets the bar for justice very low. We fail as a nation when we fail to meet standards we as individuals would have a right to if we too were accused.
Right… I can pop in the word ‘alleged’ and dot it around the place if it makes you feel more comfy while you sip on your chardonnay and ponce about on the fence. Or is your preferred drop Vodka.
Pop it in Selwyn, you are still playing fast and loose.
You did the same with chardonnay or vodka too, go on play the man not the issue.
Sometimes a tackle occurs before the ball is in possession. But, fair enough, you mentioned the word justice (which is what it’s all about, surely). Anyway, if you listen to the podcast you might find some common ground.
Will I, or won’t I, Will I or won’t I say something? I might cause some trigger or lever to be pulled, and it could hurt too much. OK! I will ‘cos I’m such a martyr.
The first of my wonderings in this space was whether or not Nick J was one of those senior public servants schooled in the art of neoliberal governance and without an ability to see the bleeding bloody obvious without having to convene a focus group – the outcome of which will be a ‘consensus’, otherwise known as a group thunk.
Then I wondered whether he was merely equipped with a MDIA 101 pass at some bums on seats NZ University, and if so there’s a career going starting at a cadet somewhere in NZ’s MSM.
The bigger question (as one of the Minto brothers has pointed out) is about the hypocrisy and double standards that have been applied. It’s going to be the sort of thing that loses elections, triggers the nutters and conspiracy and other theorists towards violence, and eventually threatens that fragile thing called democracy.
We’ll get what we deserve. It’s in the book
Miles off Tim, I spent my entire career in commerce. Cant abide public servants, no skin in the game, no consequences. If I got it wrong it cost me in the pocket. Its a hell of a training for making sure you have an audit trail on reality.
Tim, I spent a lifetime making money out of the bloody obvious things that nobody else could be bothered seeing. Public servants are incapable of that, too risk averse.
and how do you make a crust selwyn? on a bung from who?…see flip accusations are soooo easy, as a master of ‘glib’ I know
Well Yuri, I don’t make much from providing a home on one of my servers for TDB to exist, nor from the added bonus of reading the commentariat. But, if you are so interested in the sources of my income the info is all out there for you to find. It’s not hidden unlike your real life identity. But thanks for the note of common ground. I’ll take glib.
Looks like you have upset the Putin Apologists by daring to point out the obvious Selwyn – don’t let them grind you down (they love to talk a big game while hiding behind their pseudonym’s and keyboards) . .
Hi JB, yea thanks for pointing out the pseudonym warriors. It’s always seemed gutless to me for commentators to hide behind a handle. But hey, it’s their prerogative. Maybe there’s a reason for it beyond being shamed by their own arguments.
ohhhh yuri, that was clever have a gold star and a big tick..I’m not really interested in your income, just pointing out glib references to vodka and russian names are easy.
Can you guys talk, compare the War Crimes the US, UK, Nato and Au committed in that illegal War in Iraq that the gutless UN did nothing about? And also they did nothing about the 1 million dead innocent civilians.
You know S. Some ‘balanced’ opinion based of evidence and fact.
Perspective. Because we all know that this is a proxy war between the US and Russia and to a degree, China too.
Hi T/M/M, Have a listen, we actually talk about the hypocrisy. It’s important to do so, as is being consistent.
Will do chief. Cheers.
This is what Scott Ritter has to say:
“The Ukrainian National Police committed numerous crimes against humanity in Bucha. Biden, in seeking to shift blame for the Bucha murders onto Russia, is guilty of aiding and abetting these crimes. Congratulations, America…we’ve created yet another Presidential war criminal.”
Scott Ritter is a former US Marine Corps intelligence officer and author of ‘SCORPION KING: America’s Suicidal Embrace of Nuclear Weapons from FDR to Trump.’ He served in the Soviet Union as an inspector implementing the INF Treaty, in General Schwarzkopf’s staff during the Gulf War, and from 1991-1998 as a UN weapons inspector.
Here’s a video from Mariupol where independent journalist Patrick Lancaster interviews citizens living on the front line who talk about “Nazi” snipers killing those around them – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRtLFT2sbBg&t=448s It wouldn’t be hard to collect bodies and set them up to look like a mass murder.
The point being that it is quite possible that Ukraine soldiers set up their deaths to look like mass murder. This doesn’t mean the Ukrainians did it OR the Russians did. What it does mean is that an independent investigation needs to be done ASAP (not one led by the EU and Ukrainians, both of whom are involved in this war on the same side).
Immediately saying it was the Russians is just playing into the game of prolonging the war at the expense of Ukrainian civilians (noting that this occurred just when peace talks were making some progress).
TBD readers are kindly asked to watch/listen to the episode before commenting. We discuss the “whataboutism” hypocrisy issue in some length, citing the US invasion of Iraq as an example, as well as the fact that both the US and Russia are not parties to the ICC. We even mention Benjamin Netanyahu as well, and not in a favorable light. We dwell on the fact that as the first social media war, the weight of evidence that points the finger of guilt at Russian troops for the atrocities is compelling. It may not yet be genocide, but it is clear that war crimes have been committed. It takes willful ignorance or residence in an alternate reality to believe that the Ukrainians would stage the crimes or that photos/videos were digitally altered to that effect. But as we note, it will take time to unearth the evidentiary truth and bring the perpetrators to justice (if ever).
Again, have a view or listen.
it isn’t GENOCIDE full stop…atrocities on both sides yup..more than likely
it’s not a mass industrial death factory designed to eliminate an entire race systematically…ie eradicate their genome from the planet.
soz but the deliberate misuse and frankly slack use of the word erks me….it grossly overinflates the discussion as if civilian deaths in war needs overinflating in seriousness
TBD readers are kindly asked to watch/listen to the episode before commenting. We discuss the “whataboutism” hypocrisy issue in some length, citing the US invasion of Iraq as an example, as well as the fact that both the US and Russia are not parties to the ICC. We even mention Benjamin Netanyahu as well, and not in a favorable light. We dwell on the fact that as the first social media war, the weight of evidence that points the finger of guilt at Russian troops for the atrocities is compelling. It may not yet be genocide, but it is clear that war crimes have been committed. It takes willful ignorance or residence in an alternate reality to believe that the Ukrainians would stage the crimes or that photos/videos were digitally altered to that effect. But as we note, it will take time to unearth the evidentiary truth and bring the perpetrators to justice (if ever).
Again, have a view or listen.
Hi Selwyn – thanks to you and Paul for another interesting installment today.
In my view it definitely is the case the hypocracy is breaking down the international rules-based order, as you discussed. Iraq 2003 really hurt international norms, and as PB said, it kind of made something like Ukraine 2022 inevitable. I also think he is right that we might see something like a Pinochet scenario – except that that occurred in a uni-polar world. Putin will be able to go to North K, the PRC, the Solomons, much of Africa, probably India, etc etc. And he may find the comfortable life he needs by thuggery.
But hypocracy seems not to be only thing, and I think the TDB audience shows you this. Very interesting here testing the idea with commenters – in comparing the NZ/Solomons context to the Russia/Ukraine one as Chris Trotter recently has – that “liberal values are better” than authoritarian ones.
People seem simply unwilling to say so. I find this amazing. In my view it is unrealistic to expect the perfect attainment of a values system – utopian. The focus should be on the sincerity of the attempt. But for many the now-serious-shortfall from achieving liberal values seems to be such that they won’t even defend them as ideas, not even in a small nz website’s comments section. Fascinating, crazy, stuff.
Anyway, wonder if you guys might consider a discussion on the relevance of econ politics to the international reaction to the Ukraine situation.
Big ups.