It’s a mixed blessing to see ACT leader David Seymour agreeing with me but he is right to oppose mandatory vaccination for people who are able to show they are free of covid 19.
I have blogged about this twice recently here and here.
It’s a heavy-handed overreach by the state to sack workers because they are unvaccinated when those same workers, through a simple, quick test are able to prove, as regularly as the government likes, that they are covid free.
The irony is that government policies mean vaccinated teachers and nurses, who do not need to show they are covid free, pose more danger to students at schools or to patients in hospitals than unvaccinated teachers or nurses who can prove they are covid free.
I’m pleased David Seymour can see this and astonished the government can’t or won’t.
The result of this government stance is not a safer community but rather a rapidly developing legacy of bitterness and alienation for a significant section of the population.
As I’ve said before, the government’s role is to encourage everyone to get vaccinated and provide the resources and the means for this to happen as the best way to avoid our health system from being overwhelmed.
At the same time the government should develop some respect for those who, for whatever reason, decline to be vaccinated but who can readily prove, at any time, they are covid free.
Welcome to the ACT Party John! The party that prefers to leave citizens alone as much as possible to make their own decisions in life.
I have yet to hear a compelling argument in favour of the vaccine mandate. If anyone here has one then please explain.
Exactly who is the government trying to protect with this draconian ruling? Not the vaccinated for sure, unless they’re now saying the vaccine doesn’t work. It can’t be to reduce transmission because the vaccine doesn’t stop that either. Neither does the vaccine prevent a person getting infected.
The only possible excuse is that the unvaccinated have the potential to overload the hospitals. So how about just saying the unvaccinated would get low priority in the triage when there is a surge in cases and leave them to figure it out for themselves?
So what about the children who are not eligible for vax and being taught by unvaccinated teachers – are you going to tell them to take their chances as well? Like all ACT party policies this latest decree is just selfish, it totally ignores the responsibilties we have as citizens.
Try this Oxford calculator on for size https://qcovid.org/
Example, a 19 year old with no comorbidities. Chance of dying from Covid is one in a million. Hospital admission one in forty seven thousand. What about the children indeed.
What this fail to raise is the unvaccinated carry the infectious viral load a lot more than the vaccinated. Kids bring it home from school, this the family and on and on it goes.
So it’s not about the individual, it’s about the common good!
Something very unACT!
All of us here would love to see the science, the evidence for your claims. Unvaccinated are more infectious than the vaccinated according to what science? And schools, the great incubator of all manner of ills, infect how many adults exactly? In fact, when have parents ever worried about what their kids may bring home to them? When?
Don’t let the common good cloud your judgement my friend…the only thing that matters is verifiable proof!
My thoughts exactly. It’s not that the vaccine is so bad or ineffective – it’s just in the circumstances of an extreme measure, with vaccinations rate already high, and evidence showing it has limited effect on transmission and protection wanes in months (hence booster), and the heinous morality of a two-class society, I’ve yet to see anything approaching a decent justification for mandates and passports. Nor explanation why unvaccinated are so morally and operationally responsible for our hospital capacity and demand, above say smokers, the obese, the Government, etc.
All I’ve seen is a whole bunch of self-righteousness and fear. Teachers? Kids are more in danger from car accidents! Literally. And natural immunity is showing strong evidence as as largely more effective and longer term.
We’ve only had one case from a Left leaning Judge who is the son of a former Labour Prime Minister. It’s an open secret Matthew Palmer got the HC judgeship as sop for being refused his real desire – Solicitor-General in charge of Crown Law.
James, on what statistic do you base “Kids are more in danger from car accidents!” – have you got some projection as to how many children will suffer from Covid once it becomes endemic in NZ? To use current numbers is a completely fallacious comparison
And overload the urupa Andrew but then you don’t care do you.
Problem is medical staff who aren’t vaccinated. More likely to get covid and pass it on, making patients who are vulnerable and other staff sick
“The result of this government stance is not a safer community but rather a rapidly developing legacy of bitterness and alienation for a significant section of the population.”
Currently 90% of NZ is 1st dose and rising. Some parts of NZ are over 95% quite remarkable.
This is currently unsignificant and shrinking by the day.
I must disagree with the basis of your argument John. All tests give historical results so no one can say they are still Covid free because of a recent test. Also all tests have a failure rate, the rapid test being less reliable. The reality even at 100% accuracy a weekly test gives you a week to spread the virus. We must all assume we have the virus and that those we interact with may have it. The vaccination reduces severity and transmission, so in vulnerable settings remains the most effective weapon, hence thd mandate.
The vaccine reduces severity of Covid-like symptoms and nothing, absolutely nothing else.
“It’s a mixed blessing to see ACT leader David Seymour agreeing with me but he is right to oppose mandatory vaccination for people who are able to show they are free of covid 19.”
This is a wedge argument. Does anyone expect those who aren’t vaccinated to continually go and get tested to prove they are Covid-free? They will do it once or twice and then employers will likely turn a blind eye or just trust that they are getting the tests done.
“The irony is that government policies mean vaccinated teachers and nurses, who do not need to show they are covid free, pose more danger to students at schools or to patients in hospitals than unvaccinated teachers or nurses who can prove they are covid free.” – This misses the point that those who are vaccinated are less likely to pass on Covid in the first place, and they are less likely to be incubators of Covid.
As someone who has to work with people who are not vaccinated, I don’t see why the loss of my rights as a worker who should expect to have a high level of protection from covid in my work place, should be an acceptable price to pay for others who don’t want to get vaccinated. If they don’t want to get vaccinated, then the onus is on them to pay the price for their freedom to practice their beliefs instead of transferring the price on to me and my co-workers.
Yes, that is the point.
Testing is unreliable and used by the state to infringe our rights – cannabis use for one.
Vaxxing is designed to stop the progress of the pandemic (world wide) so it is a social act.
It gives protection (if not lasting immunity) and protects the non-vaxxed by passing on a less virile dose less frequently.
More than that vaxxs are socially produced. They are a contradictory instance of how socialism emerges from the bowels of capitalism.
Public health was never the invention of the bosses. Workers actions to safeguard their health and safety pushed the ruling class to invest in public health.
While they needed health workers bosses complied.
Over the last century more and more worker have been pushed into the research army of labour. Those who stayed in jobs saw their health and safety come under attack.
Only by turning your back on this history of class struggle, John, do you end up in the camp of the capitalist right win individualists show mantra is the neoliberal ‘freedom of choice’.
So the antivax argument is nothing but that of the right wing libertarian claiming that the future rests on the bourgeois right of the individual to buy and sell anything, including his or her own body, and that of their children.
Barbaric.
This is what Rosa Luxemburg meant by humanity having to chose between ‘socialism or barbarism’.
Wow, I haven’ t read such a piece of communist propaganda (with Rosa Luxemburg) for ages. Good on you if you believe it. It is your free choice and this wicked capitalist barbaric state you are living in allows you to choose your opinion and to proclaim it publicly.
Well that’s one Qanon opinion I’ll put in the dust bin albeit our supposedly wicked barbaric state allows you to choose your opinion and to proclaim it publicly.
I hope you think hard and see the irony.
Hi, bert, as for Qanon, have a look, I am nearly the only one here under my full name.
As for the irony, I hope you see it, too.
The irony is there for all to see, even condom John below see’s it!
Usually agree with JM but can’t on this issue. the idea of vaccinations is to build immunity for the community and having unvaccinated in the work place WILL spread the disease and unfortunately those on the bottom rung will end up suffering the most. Concern over “bitterness or alienation” is misguided given that it already exsists through being promoted by fuck wits like your new best friend David Seymour. JM give yourself an upper cut and get back to doing what you do best.
The point is that employers have a countervailing right to refuse employment to the unvaccinated, and workers a similar right to refuse to work alongside an unvaccinated person, on grounds of health ans safety. There is also the possibility of customer boycotts to be taken into account. Making the vaccine mandatory will probably avoid a lot of litigation.
John, if unvaccinated teachers/medical staff were allowed to practise would you agree to their unvaccinated status having to be declared to parents/patients – or would you see that as an infringement on their privacy? Would parents/patients have the right to refuse their services?
The unvaxed deserve no respect. If they can be persuaded by right-wing USA social media to not get vaxed I do not want them teaching my grandchildren. For years the standard of teaching in NZ has declined and perhaps his is the chance to weed out the dead wood as I suspect they could be from the same group.
We seem to have a lot of experts today.
Stupid reasoning John Minto based on emotion
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