When someone hands out leaflets which say “Allah is a gay god” and “Allah is transgender” then this is not an issue of free speech. This is part of a calculated campaign to incite religious hatred.
When someone boards a boat to intervene and prevent the rescue of refugees in leaky boats in the Mediterranean then this is not a freedom of speech issue. It is part of a calculated campaign to whip up hatred and hysteria against refugees.
This is what the two “alt-right” (neo-fascist) Canadians have done elsewhere and yet a so-called “free speech coalition” wants them to have public venues to continue their vile campaigns designed to whip up anger and aggression against racial and religious minorities in this country.
The UK government banned them but New Zealand has given them visas.
And to those who say the ideas of these Canadians are stupid and would never get traction in New Zealand just remember that the rise of fascism in Spain, Italy and Germany during the 1930s was fuelled precisely by such despicable campaigning which demonised racial, religious and political minorities. The outcome was the Second World War and the holocaust which killed six million Jews alongside communists, gays, gypsies and disabled people.
When these hate-merchants turn up here we need to turn up the heat on them.
What if she just put Allah in a condom and displayed it at our national museum ?
When someone boards a boat to intervene and prevent the rescue of refugees
The boat was in the harbor, and subsequently the government has blocked all of these boats. She was just pointing out GEOs were helping traffic people and breaking international laws, if you don’t like them facts, maybe get the laws changed.
And John do you lock your house, remove your front door if you want open borders.
BTW she NEVER bordered any boats, apart from the one she was already on, while waiting for the ‘refugee’ ship to tun up in the HARBOR.
She ‘obeys’ way more laws than say …. ummm the Springbok tour protesters, you know your lot of criminals.
So you support the other side of the anti-tour movement, Robert? You know, the apartheid criminals?
If you’re going to side with neofascists, be a little more upfront about it.
No Mr anon just pointing out that Lauren and Stefan obey the laws of the country.
Didn’t ‘we’ fight a couple of wars to have the freedom of speech?
If the laws are neo-fascist then whos problem is that?
No, neither was for freedom of speech – and one was to stop actual fascists.
I hope we don’t see here a rise in Islamophobia,..it’s certainly on the rise in the US..ugly and cruel.
I hope we do see a rise here in Islamophobia, because Islam sucks a big one and should be rejected as a bullshit ideology by anyone in a liberal western democracy who learns anything about it. I think you mean you hope we don’t see a rise here in anti-Muslim bigotry, which certainly is a DO NOT WANT but is a different thing from rejecting bullshit ideologies.
No, Milt, Islamophobia has no place in our society. Just as antizionism in the 1930s was code for antisemitism, islamophobia is a thin veneer covering a nasty racist streak.
Don’t be sucked in by it.
It is, huh? Must be true because you’ve asserted it to be the case, or something?
When I look at the tenets of Islam I see a nasty authoritarian ideology overlaid with some God blather. But don’t take my word for it – if I’m right, we could expect countries in which Islam dominates politics to display nasty authoritarian features with an overlay of God blather. And, sure enough, the countries in which Islam most dominates politics are Saudi Arabia and Iran, both of which display nasty authoritarian features with an overlay of God blather. Any counter-examples out there?
Most religions are like that, Milt. Why single out Islam when the Bible has some pretty extreme teachings in it. According to the Bible, women who are declared “witches”, homosexuals, adulterers, are all to be put to death.
I can find the relevant links, but I really can’t be arsed.
But if you want a more modern example of the “gentleness” of Christianity, I refer you to the treatment of a nine year old rape victim;
ref: https://www.smh.com.au/world/vatican-defends-excommunication-for-raped-nineyearold-girls-abortion-20090308-8s3s.html
So there y’go; ” the accused stepfather would not be expelled from the church. Although the man allegedly committed “a heinous crime … the abortion – the elimination of an innocent life – was more serious”…
Before the self-righteous Islamophobes point their judgemental fingers at Islam (which is no better than christianity in many respects), have a thought for a religion that condemns a nine year old rape victim while the rapist was treated more leniently.
The West is hardly “100% Pure” in this respect.
Disclaimer: I’m a militant atheist and regard all religions with disdain and contempt. That said:
In what sense is Christianity a political ideology, Frank? When you read through the Nicene Creed, what behavioural rules does it impose? What legislative programme does it lay out? What instructions did Jesus give about what punishments should be applied to whom, for what offences? In that respect, there’s a huge gulf between Islam and Christianity.
You could fill a multi-volume encyclopedia with “Here’s some bad shit that Christians did.” It’s irrelevant. My argument is about the underlying ideology of a religion, not whether some adherents of it do bad things or not. The underlying ideology of Islam is a fundamentally illiberal one, and that’s reflected wherever it comes to dominate a country’s politics.
The same can easily be said of fundamentalist christianity and judaism, Milt.
And I gave Andy one exaqmple of a recent case in Brazil where catholic extremism is political: https://www.smh.com.au/world/vatican-defends-excommunication-for-raped-nineyearold-girls-abortion-20090308-8s3s.html
It can be easily said, yes. It can’t be as easily argued for, which is something else entirely.
(NB: you could argue that Judaism is also an authoritarian ideology, but Judaism makes no claim that it applies to the whole of humanity so who cares.)
And it’s telluing that you trivialise “Here’s some bad shit that Christians did.” as “It’s irrelevant” – but go on to demonise Islam as a ” fundamentally illiberal one”.
You then state about Islam “and that’s reflected wherever it comes to dominate a country’s politics” – whilst conveniently omitting the damage that fundamentalist christianity inflicts on US culture (and in the South Pacific – more on that later in an upcoming blogpost). And that’s under the cloak of “religious freedom” – including the “right” to discriminate.
Christianity used to be a whole lot more extreme before Western society evolved (mostly) away from it. But even here in New Zealand, there are remnants of it.
“The UK government banned them but New Zealand has given them visas.”
Would that be the same British government that gave a state welcome to President Erdogan of Turkey who is presently carrying out ethnic cleansing of Kurds in the Syrian province of Afrin, and has shut down newspapers and imprisoned journalists?
If these two Canadians had been buying literally billions of dollars of arms which would be used to suppress a different race, I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t have been banned.
100% welll said ESOTERIC PINEAPPLES
And this is why I love and respect the Daily Blog: it gives voice.
But to think there is any kind of fascist underground in this country that may be stirred up is absurd.
Have the courage of your own convictions and ideas, John.
Are they that flimsy?
When someone hands out leaflets which say “Allah is a gay god” and “Allah is transgender” then this is not an issue of free speech.
Not at all. Well, not unless someone tried to stop them, at least.
When someone boards a boat to intervene and prevent the rescue of refugees in leaky boats in the Mediterranean then this is not a freedom of speech issue.
Sure – nothing to do with freedom of speech.
This is what the two “alt-right” (neo-fascist) Canadians have done elsewhere and yet a so-called “free speech coalition” wants them to have public venues to continue their vile campaigns designed to whip up anger and aggression against racial and religious minorities in this country.
Ah – I see why you didn’t add “this is not a freedom of speech issue,” because this one totally is a freedom of speech issue, which also happens to be why all those people are calling it a freedom of speech issue.
If the council wants to deny venues to people on the basis it doesn’t like their political opinions, that’s about as free-speech an issue as you could get. You can dress it up as being about preventing people from stirring up racial and religious trouble, but a right-wingers could use exactly the same dressing to deny venues to atheists and indigenous rights activists. Be careful what you agitate for.
What if she just put Allah in a condom and displayed it at our national museum ?
Interesting to note, John, that the free speech waddlers are mostly white middle aged (and beyond!) males.
I’m afraid that NZ’s inherent DNA conservatism will come back to bite us all on the bum…
Kind of ironic that you’re addressing that comment to a white middle-aged man. Also kind of ironic that you’re using bigotry in support of denying rights to bigots. Also kind of ironic that you describe a belief in the right to speak as “conservative,” given the number of radicals who fought conservatives to win us that right.
Actually, Milt, JS Bark has a valid point. It does seem that the free speech fetish is peddled largely by white middle-aged, middle-class males. You know, the ones who AREN’T targetted by neo-fascists.
I guess, if you regard your personal bigotry against a particular group of people as being relevant to an argument about fundamental principles of human rights, you might mistake it for a valid point. But that would mean Southern and Molyneux also have a valid point.
Yup, I’m fulla iron…
(which is also ironic)
Among the worst of Molyneux’s sick allegations is that intelligence is related to skin colour and that brown skinned people are less intelligent
than white, ergo they are inferior. In my book that’s hate speech.
All that was debunked back in the 60’s, and Molyneux himself is living proof of dumb white man, but unfortunately from some of the blogs posted here it is clear that here in NZ we have evolved as a generally unthinking uninformed society, isolated and parochial, and the bile emanating from this pair has the potential to keep these backward people backward, which in practical terms alone is a divisive societal model which we can ill afford.
yeah agree with you Christine to them us Maori are inferior. The Treaty of Waitangi says we are supposed to be protected and our taonga protected. Yet letting these f..wits come here and tramp on us and our culture is not protecting us and their evil weasel words are just as divisive and harmful as actions they incite people to act nasty towards others and we don’t need their bullshit here we have enough problems with our own racist groups.
Christine…Spot on…you’ve hit the nail on the head…
“Among the worst of Molyneux’s sick allegations is that intelligence is related to skin colour and that brown skinned people are less intelligent
than white, ergo they are inferior. In my book that’s hate speech”.
Maori bashing is common here in NZ, and its the very same mob that played this card just a few weeks ago…Don Brash and his ilk love making the media any way they can. They hate difference. They are white supremacists pretending to support free speech. Brash attempted and failed to stop revelations about his bias being published, so much for free speech.
yeah racism is alive and well in NZ
I have 4 examples.
I’ve been lucky to have only seen 4 abused dogs, those chained to a kennel, not aloud inside and deprived of attention, warmth, ‘reasonable’ food, clean water, space, vet care. etc. The racial thing is, they all had Maori names!
As the grand daughter of a man who was on a watch list from 1914 and 1939 and nearly was imprisoned on Soames Island for being the son of a German I know the power of speech! The targets have changed but the hate speech is constant. People are swept away when they feel under attack and they will attack the targets who can’t fight back. It sickens me when nice white middle class people rabbit on about free speech as they do so from a position of privilege – they will never have to run from a crowd stirred up by speech against them.
Spot on, Lucy. My money is in the fact that the pro-“free speechers” here, many of whom are openly racist and anti–feminist, are white males.
Am I wrong?
Congrats Mr Trotter et al, these are the types you’ve aligned with. And by the way, where is Mr Trotter to debate with the alt-rightwingers who’ve turned up on this forum?? He said he wanted a “contest of ideas”, but he’s not turned up with his ideas.
I think it was George Bernard Shaw who said that if everyone said what they thought, the streets would run with blood.
I believe that George quote describes nationalism, whereas patriotism is a love of one’s country. In that sense, I am very patriotic. Nevertheless, I also agree that dissent should not be confused with disloyalty, and that patriots should always be ready to criticize the government when they believe it is doing something wrong. By this we refine our country and make it better than it was in the past.
My money is in the fact that the pro-“free speechers” here, many of whom are openly racist and anti–feminist, are white males.
Am I wrong?
I hope you are, because I’d hate to think the only people giving a shit about freedom of speech are white males. Also: “white males” isn’t some kind of trump card you can wave when you have no argument, it’s just a piece of bigotry you don’t mind exposing.
No, Milt. Mjolnir is saying that straight white males are usually not the targets of neo-fascists. In fact, Southern and Molyneux agitate to protect the privilege of a white patriarchal, heterosexual society.
In case you missed it, those two also target trans people with their hate speech.
Mjolnir is saying that straight white males are usually not the targets of neo-fascists.
The first people that actual fascists rounded up and executed or put in concentration camps were communists, most of them straight white men. Southern and Molyneux, for all the unpleasant nature of their output, are not fascists.
In any case, this isn’t a discussion about who’s got more impressive victim credentials, it’s a discussion about principle. If anyone has an argument for allowing councils to decline venues based on not liking the hirer’s political opinions that wouldn’t also allow conservative councils to decline venues to left-wingers, indigenous activists, feminists and atheists, I’d be willing to give it a hearing, but so far no-one’s got an argument, just a lot a lot of “whose side are you on?” rhetoric.
MJOLNIR is cleverly using the race card when cornered by stating “white males” now that was not very bright.
quote from MJOLNIR
That was predictable.
Yes Wheeler and Lucy – the power of speech. Shakespeare did it better than these two, but the speech is very much the key thing here.
The nice white middle class people who espouse these idiots, are the same people who get apoplectic about Treaty Settlements, they feel hard done by. In my family it’s the well-heeled ones, and I can predict their views on just about everything.
The awful thing about these two and all the fuss they’re causing is that they are incredibly mediocre; I first saw them by chance on a clip from Hyde Park and she was performing for the cameras about a lost hat – which, when found, didn’t even warrant her degree of melodrama at all.
She’s nothing, and he may be seriously thick.
I agree that they’re mediocre – Southern gives the impression of trolling people for money and Molyneux is like a living illustration of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Fortunately though, society doesn’t base its rules on who’s allowed to hire a council venue on our opinions of the quality of the speakers.
Milt, that depends on what you define as “quality”.
Would you be ok with ISIS or AMBLA hiring a hall to “spread their message”? If those two groups are an extreme example, what limits (if any) would you apply?
If “free speech” is unconstrained, that makes a mockery of our hate-speech laws. In which case anything goes.
The question then becomes, what is the purpose of that “free speech”? What are the speakers advocating? What are they directly or indirectly exhorting their supporters to do?
“Free speech” is not black and white. Especially if you’re an ethnic group, religious minority, LGBT, etc. To those people in society, “free speech” isn’t free at all and they pay the costs of heightened tensions.
Would you be ok with ISIS or AMBLA hiring a hall to “spread their message”?
Depends, doesn’t it? If Da’esh want to hire a hall to tell people about the delights of fundamentalist Islam, or NAMBLA want to hire a hall to agitate for the age of consent to be lowered, what basis is there for rejecting their request beyond not liking what they’re saying? On the other hand, if Da’esh want the hall so they can tell local Muslims they have a duty to kill as many kuffir as they can, or NAMBLA want it so they can urge people to rape children, then we’re talking criminal charges rather than hall hire.
If “free speech” is unconstrained, that makes a mockery of our hate-speech laws.
I’d put it the other way round: hate speech laws are a mockery of free speech.
The question then becomes, what is the purpose of that “free speech”?
The purpose according to whom? Who gets to officially define what the purpose of a particular speech is, and decide on that basis whether to permit the person to express their opinion or not? Do you think Colin Craig, Brian Tamaki or Bob McCroskie would share your opinion of what constitutes an acceptable purpose for someone’s speech? Why would it be you rather than one of them who gets to decide?
She was responding to the claim Jesus was a homosexual and conducted a social experiment – clearly she was right, there is a double standard. Shame John!
I have zero idea what these two are on about (white supremacists maybe?) because I have little interest and actually in my view probably a photogenic millennial trying to make a buck with the latest fad, identity politics.
I am seeing the most anger and aggression whipped up by the so called lefty liberals who if they were not publicising these two so much, would mean that nobody would have heard of these nobodies.
How did Trump do so well, used the liberal identity policies “Hillary’ globalism and identity politics to actually make people vote for him in protest. If he had just been a rich billionaire with bad hair who was on TV, and got not publicity and riots, he would never had made it into office!
It’s the fucking liberals who get their knickers in a twist over ‘speech’ rather than what the fuck terrible things going on under our noses, many of them not condemned by our own liberal and democratic parties (Obama and drone assassinations come to mind) that are keeping the right wingers in power!
This type of thing is a diversion to keep the lefties and Media excited while they don’t bother protesting and publicising real things going on.
The left need to stay a bit more focused, stop being hypocrites and actually protest about REAL and actual things going on in the world and change them for the better, not get sidetracked by pretty folks with guns and offensive slogans DESIGNED to get publicity and to distract!
Listened to these two on youtube.They are both not very bright, similar to students in what used to be called special classes for backward students, some of whom were successful or made a name for themselves in spite of their intellectual challenges. (ACT ex leaders and their supporters included).
Good luck to those similarly challenged who will pay $79 odd to listen to them, if anyone is foolish enough to give them a venue.
The demagogues of fascism in Italy, Spain, Germany arose from within those societies not from without. They were figures that took power through the Governments of those countries, except for Franco who was a military figure but had the backing of politicians. Mino has a loose grasp of history.
Whats your point?
No, we shouldn’t be afraid of Islam, Andy. You’re ridiculous.
JANIO
I am not convinced we should not be weary after watching this Islam religion is doing lots of ‘racial/religious cleansing all around the globe today.
“Actions speak louder than words”
There are people participating in this discussion that I would like to ‘ignore’ on a permanent basis, as is possible on other sites that invite discussion, for example, the Washington Post. It would make reading the comments section here wholly more enjoyable, informative and thought provoking. This isn’t so much about avoiding opposing ideology; it’s more about not having to waste time skim-reading nonsense.
Martyn, would you consider this, if crowd-funding made it possible?
@John Stroh
“There are people participating in this discussion that I would like to ‘ignore’ on a permanent basis,
So how long does it take you to read the name at the top of each comment?
John Minto along with thousands of us in 1981 protested apartheid, he and we can be proud of our stance. Great work John. Have you, or any of us recently made any enquiry or protest about the ejection of white farmers from their land? It would appear Southern has. Does this make her a neo Fascist? Are we displaying some clear double standards?
On that note huge crowds in London demonstrated against the leader of a democracy where women have equal rights, where being gay is not a mortal crime, where religious freedom is constitutional, where slavery is banned, where adulterers do not get stoned. Less than a week later a Middle Eastern emir visited, whose kingdom was the exact opposite. No protest.
Clear cases of double standards. I think the Left has lost all credibility.
She is a journalist, author and documentary maker.
Her feature is a doco called ‘Farmlands’ – highlighting white genocide in South Africa.
FARMLANDS (2018) Official Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=114&v=a_bDc7FfItk
Lauren Southern website.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCla6APLHX6W3FeNLc8PYuvg
Nick – just do a wee google before you mouth off.
I was on the march in Auckland that was opposing Mugabe and his policies in Zimbabwe. The march was organised by Minto himself.
I am always astonished that people can criticise Minto and other prominent activists for not doing something about EVERYTHING.
Step up and organise Nick J against or for the things you believe in!
MIchael, Read again before you say mouth off. I asked a question, I like the answer, that is reassuring.
And yes, I organise a lot, but hell I just don’t get the Lefts becoming the mirror of all that we have fought for. Which is why I won’t march to that step any more.
So dont complain, Nick J. If youre not going to protest against injustice, get out of tge way of those who do take up the struggle!!
@ Frank
No tab to click on to reply above.
No I’m not religious. In fact I have come to believe religion does more harm in the world than good. Good religious people use their religion for good, Bad people put religion to bad use.
I think society should be as accommodating as it can to people’s desires and needs especially where it causes no harm to others. Yes I grew up on a farm and homosexual rape is common among farm animals anyway, and presumably among wild animals as well. It is often used as an expression of domination among animals.
But that doesn’t mean that you have to pretend that the physical facts are not as they are. There lies madness.
D J S
David, your inference that homosexuality equates to rape is apalling, as is your transphobia. No, physical facts are “not as they are”, because that negates the full spectrum of human sexuality. You may be heterosexual, but the rest of the human population runs the full rainbow of sexuaity and gender.
Denying the reality of transgenderism is your own denial of facts as they are. I heard the same bullshit arguments as yiurs back in the 1980s. They failed then and they will fail now because imposing your narrow prejuduced view on others is based on irrationality and nothing else. Do some research of sexual dimorphism and educate yourself.
I did not intend that inference. The observations of animal behaviour don’t need to imply that. Obviously that is not the nature of most human homosexual behaviour.
I have only addressed my arguments to simple biological facts.
Please don’t make assumptions .
D J S
I did not intend that inference. The observations of animal behaviour don’t need to imply that. Obviously that is not the nature of most human homosexual behaviour.
I have only addressed my arguments to simple biological facts.
Please don’t make assumptions .
D J S
Sorry Mjolnir but no amount of research into dimorphism is likely to persuade me that an animal naturally able to conceive and bear and suckle children is not a woman or that an animal naturally able to impregnate a woman and quite unable to bear children is other than a man. There is no prejudice in this except against bullshit.
D J S
Congratulations, Martyn and Chris, your pontificating about free speech has delivered screeds of comments filled with islamophobia, racism, misogyny, and transphobia. Your blog is swimming in the sewer with Whaleoil and Kiwiblog. If this is the product of your fetishization of free speech, your welcome to every bit of prejudice and ignorance it vomits up. As for Trotter wanting to debate the altright, hes nowhere to be seen onthis forum.
When you’re puzzled, and then someone dismisses your amazement because you never produced anything in your life.
i.e: -This song sucks.
-Well have you ever written a song?
I automatically assume anyone doing this is 9 years old. Weirdest part is that if someone at a restaurant didn’t like their food and you said “Well have you ever been a chef?,” everyone would rightfully look at you as if you were insane, but it’s apparently acceptable to do this with things like race and religion.
Reading through all the comments on this blog you need stamina. A few trolls in a anti-Islam frenzy of hate speech. Agree with Mjolnir – a lot of confusion about free speech, which has opened up this hate speech.
I didn’t read every comment in here but I did wrestle with the “it” known as Andy. This whole episode had “it” typing in tongues. Just in this thread alone he’s using labels like race, rape, gays, pedophiles, Islam and you can go down the list. And it’s got nothing to do with anything. Even Andy itself says it’s one big Straw man. “It” shows zero remorse. “It” just has no sole. “It” is not human. This is why the white supremacist is called the devil the bible speaks of. “It” is just that simple, that’s who they are. So Andy is not bothered with indiscriminate IDF murdering Palestinian civilians while Andy is just mocking every one. That’s not normal ladies and gentlemen.
And people all over the world are wondering what’s going on and Andy wants to hide all this from you. Ladies and gentlemen this is a legacy for them white supremacist alt-right, what ever you want to call them. This is who they always have been. They started out as colonialists, murdered black/brown/indigenous people, they made murdered Māori, they took land from the islands, they took land from everybody. White Supremacists, and I make the distinction white supremacists did nothing honourable. The gave the flu to Māori, they gave small pox to indigenous Australians. Anything that you look at in there history has not been anything of peace. Nothing of trying to have a spirit of brotherhood and working together. All you see in the history of the coloniser is death, destruction, disease, rape, pillaging, indulging. That’s all you see and it’s coming out in Andys comments. And they don’t want to discuss any of this with convenient excuses of well “that was in the past.” And if it was truly in the past I wouldn’t even be mentioning it because I would say, “you know what the children of those people are making it right,” and they don’t even practice any of that so why the fuck are we even discussing any of this except from an historic sense???
But no the same things they where thinking back in the day, they’re thinking today. The same things they were doing to confiscate land they’re doing today. And some of these guys are apart of the Israeli lobby and the MAGA crowd. Before some of you say he must be from the left or something dumb like that because of supporters of white supremacy but atleast I’m talking about the ones that are open about it. BUT nothing has changed with these people. You can go back to the 80’s, 70’s, 60’s and find the same old story’s, you’ll find another 18 year old Māori arrested and in prisoned on false charges. Now this has nothing to do with public safety but in the mindset of a white supremacist they’ve always had on the books the casual arrest warrants where you can arrest brown folk with out worrying about prosecution. These are laws that may not be wholly intact now BUT this is how they act to this day when it comes to brown people. I read Andy say it’s not murder if a Palestinian approaches Israelis boarder walls but it’s how white power colonials operate today.
I told Andy that the joke was on him. White supremacy is an inheritance to them. They pass it down to there children because they did not pass down to there children the evil that it is, the children would not do this. If it was truly something in the past and we need to leave it where it’s at, well that evil would have died along time ago. But no things like Andy make sure that evil is still here today, that’s why you’ve got guys going on P fuelled rampages cutting off woman’s limbs. Don’t believe these guys when they say it’s all in the past. NO, it’s them that never let it go because they never taught there children not to hate Māori, not to hate Pacific Islanders, not to hate Asians, not to hate Chinese, not to hate Russians and not to hate who ever else that is outside of themselves. This is what they teach. And then it’s a problem when we are pointing something out that’s right there.
We’re telling the truth. We’re not telling lies. Show me where I am lying in the area of what we’re talking about because I have story after story, historical reference after historical reference to prove what we are saying. As Childhood Gambino would say this is New Zealand: https://youtu.be/VYOjWnS4cMY
Let the idiots speak, but also let the opponents protest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vod5wi-88yY
Where is the NZ Inc ANTIFA, do you have ANTIFA, or are you so weak and useless, and hypocritical, you may talk and do damned nothing?
It is ridiculous what goes on here online.
If you oppose go and damned well PROTEST, you have the freedom to PROTEST!
This is a losing discussion, a totally losing argument, there is only the chance to boost the right wingers all over, if you carry on to block them full stop.
Go and argue, go and protest, and go and take action, do not cowardly back off, as this non existent left movement in NZ Inc does.
Where are YOU ‘leftists’? I never see or hear you, where are you?
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