The selection of a gay nightclub in Orlando is an assault on the very freedoms a liberal progressive modern society strives for. It angers in a unique way, the premeditated sophistication to understand how such an attack would resonate within the culture.
This is the danger of home grown terrorism. It understands the culture and knows how to hurt it the most.
Before we allow that anger to swell into something ugly, let’s remind ourselves that it was guns and hate that killed 50 and wounded 53 in Orlando last night. Before we start trying to work out who to bomb in retaliation, perhaps we need to pause and think because this type of mass killing is far more fuelled by ease of purchasing guns that can kill with huge speed and alienation that spawns hate.
Sure it’s easier to drop a bomb and blame an entire religion, but it’s that whole dropping of bombs for justice that is kinda fuelling this sort of thing in the first place.
We can not allow our anger in Orlando to warp a terrible situation into a worse one. We must strive for peace and prosperity for all, not never ending conflict. This hateful self mutilation of each other driven by fear, injustice, anger, spite and righteous grievance deforms and redefines our humanity into something ugly and beneath our evolution. If we are to find the common bond of human experience in each one of us, we must start now.
The whole violence thing is so random in the United States. Orlando also saw The Voice US 2014 third place getter shot dead while signing autographs after a concert just a few days ago.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/11/us-singer-christina-grimmie-shot-outside-concert-in-florida
Ahh the left spin has started…deny anything Muslim/Islam about the shooting but decry gun control laws, yes Martyn the public will take that hook line and sinker you think? I’ll be interested if the story that he called 911 and declared alegience to ISIS, perhaps the left will go down the ‘mentally ill’ rout to excuse him so as not to mention Muslim/Islam if that chooses to be true?
Yeah but you are to chicken to anything about it yourself
No, Im Right, you’re Not Right. Part of the problem IS the United State’s lax laws on gun ownership. If you make assault rifles legal and readily available, then surprise, surprise, any lunatic will grab one from his nearest gun fair and start blasting away.
This isn’t about Islam any more than lone nutters who bomb abortion clinics are representative of the Christian community.
You’ve got a slight problem there. ‘Christians’ generally don’t lay claim to acts of terror against abortion clinics. ‘Muslim’s’, on the other hand, seem all too willing to claim responsibility for islamic terrorism.
Which Muslims? Who? How many?
More chauvinistic generalisation masquerading as fact.
By the way, Maninthemiddle, thanks for illustrating precisely how you right-wingers hold such double standards.
Good reply PRISS
Were guns the cause of the Paris massacre, the Charlie Hebdo massacre, where assault guns are outlawed? NO, it was their fucked up death cult ideology of a religion that motivated them to do it.
I guess we better just give ISIS and other terrorism organizations a pass and blame everything on ourselves? COME OFF IT AND STOP DEFLECTING FROM THE REAL PROBLEM.
Greco, maaaaate, take a chill pill and settle the fuck down. You’re getting hysterical.
The US is awash with weapons and it’s no more a muslim problem than it was a Christian problem when Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris shot up Columbine school, killing 13 people.
Or is it only a religious problem when muslims are involved? Eh?
Until the Americans deal with the weapons flooding their society, every fanatic, nutcase, and guy with a grudge against his girlfriend or wife will be able to carry out his fantasies and slaughter at random.
This is a GUN CONTROL problem, pure and simple. Trying to turn it into a Muslim problem is just racist crap on your part.
Samwise,
+1
Amerikas constitutional right to bare arms is as stated to ‘throw off a tyrannous government’ and for self defense. I reakon we wouldnt be in the state we are now under JK had we still had the right to bare arms.! domestic terrorism bullshit.! Not even a hate crime. He chose a place he fequented so his victims would know it was he who wheeled deadly power over them. making this nothing but the egoic act of a mentally deranged individual. No need to fear Islam telling us what to do under the threat of violence, we got JK and the national party forcing extreme globalist corporatism with obsene survailance and the force of law (threat of violence). ARM the homeless sure as shit there would be no more housing crisis.
Where did the hate come from Martyn?
I think even you can join a few dots and see there is actually an extreme form of religion that contributed to the murder. To deny that is to be blind to the problem and so never have a hope of addressing it.
Banning gins, knives, and water bottles will not stop the hate and neither would have giving this guy a hug. He was raised with an ideology of hate born from the interpretation of religion that was supplemented with something more extreme later in life. THAT is the problem for Orlando, Paris, Brussels, Tel Aviv, Istanbul, Sydney, and us all.
A news report I heard today said his ex-wife described him as violent and mentally ill.
Yes, with all the conviction of someone swallowing a dead rat. You could almost see the hand up her jacksie controlling the message. Must. Not. Blame. Islam.
Tell me, MikeD, do you blame Christianity when a Christian fundy bombs an abortion clinic? Or shoots a doctor or nurse who performs abortions?
Or are you just be, you know, just a wee bit racist here and exploiting the shootings just to have a crack at Muslims?
Homosexuals are having a great time in Egypt and particularly in Saudi Arabia, I hear, so fundamentalist religious belief has nothing to do with this?
Whether it was a proper terror attack or just a hate crime, I am not sure, we may know more later tonight.
Any fundamentalist of any religion is a walking time bomb, I fear, whether Christian, Muslim or whatever.
And if a person may claim to do such things as “inspired” by ISIS, that may make it a terror attack, but it sadly seems to be in fashion to ride on such madness trends.
False flag, again.
Shooter apparently employed by G4S aka SERCO. Important to remember that brain implants are commonly used by CIA for mind control.
More info coming out that this shooting well and truly planned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vv3Um-L27k
Gun controls.
I thought this event had Hillary Clinton’s fingerprints all over it: https://geopolitics.co/2016/06/13/orlando-shootings-mask-clinton-hijacking-of-california-primary/
She carries the nickname Killary for good reason.
Good grief, are you serious?
Yes, because why wouldn’t this help Hillary instead of Trump who has been harping on about Muslims since day dot of his campaign.
Hillary strategy: Do whatever is needed to deflect attention:
http://yournewswire.com/lawsuit-finds-millions-of-uncounted-bernie-sanders-ballots/
all the things that could help stop or reduce attacks like this are generally opposed by the left.
Not true, Dave. The Left vigourously opposed the invasion of Iraq, predicated on the lie of phantom weapons of mass destruction in that country. The invasion went ahead and the remnants of Saddam’s military re-coalesced into what is now ISIS. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/23/opinion/how-saddam-hussein-gave-us-isis.html?_r=0
So your understanding of cause and effect, as usual, is lame.
The left generally oppose increased powers of the state such as intelligence gathering or, increasing powers of state agencies. Your comments about my understanding of things ” as usual, is lame” is a bit childish. I note you never comment on my posts favour the left position, not, that I seek your endorsement. and I appreciate this site allowing one to post without being subject to censorship.
My impression is the shooter genuinely came to admire the extreme ISIS fundamental anti homosexual ideology.Plus anti infidel ideology too ( By comparison the Taliban execute homosexual pedophiles in Af… ). It’s incredible a boy born and raised in America could turn out this way. I believe ISIS when they say he was one of theirs. It’s on a level of medieval cruelty when people were bonfired alive for having a different religion.
Don’t get sucked in.
The guy was investigated by the FBI twice and they found no links to any terror orginisation. So are we now to believe you, a White House offical and some random sand muncher believe Omar has terrorist links. Come on and smell the bull already.
Sam, I like your style. Short, pithy, and no BS.
Anyone who thinks this is a “muslim problem” should look again; http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/
The killer’s father is known to have supported the Taleban, I heard, and called via online videos for the overthrow of the present Afghan government. He sounds like some kind of fundamentalist himself, even though he claims now to have not known that his son shared such extreme views as he apparently did (hence investigations a few years ago re certain comments the killer made to work mates).
Taleban, same as ISIS, they stone people who are outed as gays. I watched a YouTube video showing exactly that in ISIS occupied Syria not long ago, and will not link to it here, as it is too horrendous to watch.
To claim Islam has nothing to do with such homophobia and worse is a bizarre comment, I must say, of course most Muslims would not condone this kind of attack, and would also not condone violence against gays and lesbians, but the Quran does apparently not comment kindly on gays, nor does the Old Testament of the Christians and Jews.
Sadly there are still many people interpreting such scriptures literally, and believing in the old law where homosexuality is seen as very “evil”.
I feel very shocked about this attack in Orlando, extremely shocked, same as I was about the Paris attacks.
Guess where the hate came from? ISLAM.
Triss, did the hate in Columbine and Sandy Hook also come from Islam?
Did you never study history? Read up about the dark ages to find out about religious hate. There is reason to believe that Islam arrived at the right time to prevent the Roman church having total control otherwise we would all be worshiping the pope now.
50.
Roughly equivalent to the number of non-Americans killed directly or indirectly by Americans in the Middle East every day (or is it every hour?) in their resource wars.
Fewer than the number of children who starve to death every day as a consequence of American greed.
Far less than the number killed in the global daily road toll.
Hugely less than the number killed by American corporations every day.
And a mere pittance compared to the number who are going to die soon as a consequence of military and environmental policies promoted by America over the past 100 years.
But we’re all going to be dead by the end of 2013 anyway, so what does it matter.
Get the time-frame right, please!
Self-extinction of the human species will occur some time between 2030 and 2060, depending on the rate that humans destroy what is left of the biosphere and the rate at which positive feedbacks raise the global average temperature…….with current trends indicating the earlier rather than the later time-frame.
That is unless power-crazed Americans decide to attack Russia and China, of course, in which case it will be all over a few weeks later.
Religion and/or culture doesn’t come into it. Regardless, it’s the warped, hateful, bigoted mindset behind the trigger finger which is responsible for this kind of horror!
I cannot see that the invasion of Iraq. caused this shooting as some have suggested.
Dave, that explains much about you.
Is it possible Frank that you have a comment about anyone that is not snide ?. The invasion of The of Iraq is no reason or excuse for a gay married man to go to a gay night club and kill over 50 civilians.
Its a simple equation. People like you make it unsafe for other people to go about there own business. It’s not upto you to tell people what to preach or how to live.
I know you like to talk tough on the internet but have you actually thrown a punch in anger. My point is a question. I quistion weather you will back up your tough talk.
I think you will find even the most moderate of Muslims are far far far to the right of the average New Zealander.
That being said has anyone seen the doco Dancing Boys of Afghanistan?
John, really? Evidence of your assertion? Or are you just being bigoted?
I think the Orlando location was nothing more than “a good spot to choose” organized by the Khazarian/Mossad thugs and Benjamin Fulford’s overview rings with a degree of truth:
http://benjaminfulford.net/
No further analysis needed except to say these thugs need to be swept up and out of Switzerland and Israel in the first lot of mass arrests and put into the awaiting FEMA camps.
Frank Macskasy, Priss and others who’ve labelled as right-wing, bigoted and racist, me and others with views counter to yours:
Best not to infer my political leanings – or my state of mind – from my comments.
Bigotry and racism are epithets that – it seems to me – commenters tend to fling about when they’re running out of counter-arguments. This sort of name-calling achieves nothing but the squelching of debate, because it shuts down heterodox opinions. For all the faults of US society, they greatly value freedom of speech; I’ll bet the debate there is vigorous in a way that many people here would find unpalatable.
That young man committed an appalling crime; whether or not he was gay, he was certainly a Muslim. We are entitled to point out Muslim beliefs about homosexuality: it’s almost certain that those views would have influenced him, the more so if he himself was gay. See this clip of a translated twitter page for a taste of what the reaction’s been in the Islamic world:
https://i.imgur.com/0QkDoeS.jpg
No way of knowing where in the world the commenters are living.
As several people have pointed out here and elsewhere, it isn’t necessary to ascribe to him mental illness or terrorist sympathies as explanations for his behaviour. Muslim views of gays are quite sufficient explanation.
Don’t describe the crusades, or the six counties conflict, as sectarian wars. They weren’t and aren’t. Try this for a taste of rabid sectarianism:
https://twitter.com/LinaArabii/status/742100016723034112
If you’ve ever wondered why the Israelis complain so much about al-Jazeera, there you have some evidence.
Right now, raising the many crimes of the West in the middle East in the same breath as the Orlando shootings looks like you’re attempting to justify what he did, even though that surely isn’t your intention. I’m aware that many of you see this as explanation and providing insight; fair enough, but to many of us, it looks like apologetic. You’re free to say those things, of course; but by the same token, we are also free to point out that Muslim views about gays are very pernicious, and likely have contributed in no small measure to this terrible crime.
I’m well aware of the awful toll of gun crime in the US: I don’t live under a rock. But – lest it’s seen as apologetic – I hesitate to adduce any of that in explanation. Except perhaps the San Bernardino shootings, which probably came from the same wellspring of Muslim perspective.
[D’esterre/Merrial, please use only one pseudonym in future. – ScarletMod]
I use the terms bigotry and racism quite deliberately, D’Esterre.
On the one hand, you reject that the Northern Ireland conflict between Catholics and Protestants; “Don’t describe the crusades, or the six counties conflict, as sectarian wars. They weren’t and aren’t.”
But on the other hand, you’re quite fine pointing the finger at extremism in other religious groups (in this case Islam).
And ignore point blank the violent extremism of fundamental Christians who bomb abortion clinics. Or fundamental Christian groups that advocate death to gays.
You ignore that 99% of mass shooting in the USA are carried out by US citizens who do not identify as muslim, and some identify as Christian.
**edit** In fact, considering that 99% of mass shootings are carried out by non-muslim, white, male, US citizens – you really are demonising the wrong demographic.
You ignore the latest revelations that the Orlando shooter had no proven links to ISIS; was apparently mentally disturbed; and probably a closet gay with feelings of self-revulsion.
Anything that conflicts with your euro-centric chauvinism, you ignore.
But any hint of something that supports your prejudice – you latch on to; magnify; and attach significance that does not exist outside your prejudiced mind.
Your own words betray you.
I think the truth is that Frank is actually a rightie not a leftie. He poses as a leftie, puts snide comments in respect of any comments from middle NZ and purports the generalist leftie view of things as stupid, arrogant and with a passion to insult anyone and everyone, with the belief that he will turn people away from the left. You have been found out Frank, you Tory in disguise. Very cunning.
Bugger. Ya nailed me, Dave. But you left out Reptilian shape-shifting alien from Zeta Reticuli IV…
Frank, from your response, it looks to me as if that you haven’t actually read anything I’ve written.
I and others have pointed out that Islamic views of homosexuality, as evidenced in that clip, aren’t extremist: rather, they’re mainstream. In this context, Christian views are irrelevant: the shooter was Muslim.
Of course his being Muslim is of moment, given that he’d no doubt been exposed to those views during his daily life. If he was also gay, that would have caused real dissonance in his self-image. As it would for anybody in the Islamic world.
We’ve also pointed out that it isn’t necessary to characterise him as mentally unwell, or an extremist, in an attempt to explain what he did. Pernicious Islamic views of gays are explanation enough.
You accuse me of ignoring gun crime and violent Christian extremism in the US. Here’s what I said:
“I’m well aware of the awful toll of gun crime in the US: I don’t live under a rock. But – lest it’s seen as apologetic – I hesitate to adduce any of that in explanation.”
So no, I don’t ignore it: I do, however, give a reason why I don’t want to raise that issue. I don’t want to be perceived as an apologist for what that young man did. And really, in this context, what extremist Christians do to abortion clinics isn’t relevant, and I want to stick to this narrative, rather than muddy the waters by dragging in side issues.
You say: “But on the other hand, you’re quite fine pointing the finger at extremism in other religious groups (in this case Islam).”
I took issue with inaccurate descriptions of conflicts as being sectarian when they weren’t and aren’t. On the other hand, much of the contemporary conflict in the middle east is indeed sectarian: they’re fighting over which iteration of Islam should prevail. That’s sectarian.
The six counties conflict and the crusades are and were political. That doesn’t mean that some of the agents involved don’t -and didn’t – have sectarian aspirations. But the overarching motivation is and was political.
With regard to the issue of sectarianism, over the last few centuries, Christians have been systematically persecuted out of their ancient homes in the middle east, such that numbers remaining there are now very low. There’s quite a bit of information about this online, if you want to read up on it.
Stephen Franks said on RNZ a few days ago that unless this crime is seen for what it is – and we do not yet have a full picture – the response to it will be the wrong one.
The reason why you’re seen as racist, Desterre is the fact you have picked on Islam to criticize for being “anti gay”, when in fact the Catholic Church is only marginally better. So yes, you are being Islamophobic.
You point to militant Islamic extremists and ignore the militant extremists in Christianity. In fact, you pointedly trivialize the bombings of abortion clinics in the US.
As for quoting ex Act MP, Stephen Franks to justify your prejudice, well, all I can say is that you picked the wrong person. Act is hardly a paragon of moral virtue considering the legacy of their neo-liberal policies.
To the moderator: I have well-found reasons for using two “noms de guerre”. But those reasons aren’t anybody else’s business and I prefer to keep them private.
Please note that I don’t troll; nor do I name-call. I don’t call other commenters idiots (effing or otherwise), right-wingers, left-wingers, racists or bigots. Or – what is Frank’s latest effort? Here it is: “euro-centric chauvinism”. Whatever that means…
I stick to the topic, and try always to keep to issues relevant to the topic, rather than straying off down irrelevant byways. So I see no reason why my having two pseuds is an issue at all.
“I have well-found reasons for using two “noms de guerre”
Really?
Is that to give yourself self-support when others attack your racist rubbish? Having read your comments here, D’esterre, I’m not surprised Frank has challenged your views and if you think being accused of “euro-centric chauvinism” is an insult, well yes, it is. But then, I’ve read many of Frank’s posts and I can tell you he has no truck with racists.
But in your case it is well deserved. I’d use stronger language, but I think the moderator might think twice about publishing it.
D’Esterre, in your condemnation of the entire muslim faith, you wrote;
It appears that your prejudice against Muslims is misplaced, D’Esterre;
Ref: http://boingboing.net/2016/06/15/baptist-pastor-praises-orlando.html
And,
Ref: http://www.abc10.com/news/local/sacramento/sacramento-baptist-pastor-praises-orlando-massacre/243211965
And another Baptist group;
Ref: http://www.inquisitr.com/3208122/westboro-baptist-church-protests-at-funerals-for-orlando-terrorist-attack-victims-but-counter-protesters-were-there-to-meet-them/
So focusing on militant fanatics in one religious group is a bit disingenuous, when that same kind of hate can be found throughout almost every single religious grouping.
The point is that human’s who want to hate will latch on to any belief system they want, to further their prejudices.
And bigots will latch on to a small group of extremists from these groups to further their own bigotry.
“So I see no reason why my having two pseuds is an issue at all.”
Really, D’esterre?
How many of you are there on this blog? And why do you feel the need to have multiple log-ins?
By the way, I wouldn’t try it on with ScarletMod, she doesn’t tolerate bullshit from anyone.
“So I see no reason why my having two pseuds is an issue at all.”
Which is a problem in itself, D’Esterre. Sense of entitlement much??
[Dave: please address the issue at hand, and not engage in mutual-support chit-chat with others. – ScarletMod]
With the greatest of respect I thought censorship on a blog like this was more the domain of right sites. A wee bit disappointing.
Deleting spam is not censorship
🙂
Its not spam Sam, a lot of my comments are pro left, look at the housing crisis. If comments are deleted from here then this site is as bad as what they allege of mediaworks.
Harsh sam
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