Gun inquiry shouldn’t eliminate ‘inclusive’ NZ firearms culture – group
Any changes to New Zealand’s gun laws should not come at the expense of the country’s “inclusive” firearms culture, a gun owners group says.
Council of Licenced Firearm Owners president Paul Clark has urged against any overreaction, as calls continue for an independent inquiry into New Zealand’s gun culture.
The push follows the high-profile Kawerau siege this week where four police were shot, as well as the discovery during a police raid on Thursday of fourteen military assault-grade AK47s and M16s.
It’s about bloody time we cracked down on guns in this country. The horror that America has become drowning in weapons is a culture we don’t want in this country.
Now let’s be clear, I don’t have a problem with Farmers and Hunters having their access to ‘appropriate’ firearms protected. They are tools for Farmers and Hunters, shot guns and rifles need to be registered and regulated as they are. Where I think we need a total crack down and ban is on large magazine military styled weapons and hand guns.
I have zero tolerance for the gun collector clique.
I don’t care if you like guns and have a weird fetish for them. Shotguns and rifles which are tools are one thing, military styled semi automatic machine guns and pistols have no justification whatsoever in this country. Self protection isn’t justifiable to have them.
We need to crack down on gun collectors and simply ban entire styles of weapon. Full stop.
The other situation is the gangs. Their access to these styled weapons are for protection against other gangs in the rapidly escalating meth industry. They rarely use them against the Police or the public, they are for protection against other gangs.
Currently the Headhunters and Hells Angels are running the meth trade., Their contacts with Triads allows them easy access to the precursors for meth. These precursors are moved around the country via affiliated bikie gangs and cooked up in the regions they are sold. Traditional gangs like Black Power and Mongrel Mob are being squeezed out by the wealth and power the Headhunters are able to exert from the meth trade. This is having an impact on cannabis as gangs can earn the same in a weekends cook up as they do from a 3 month cannabis grow hence the ongoing recent drought in cannabis in NZ.
These gangs are also having the weapons and guns being imported alongside the precursor ingredients for meth so the spike in these weapons is driven by the P trade.
An unusual solution to this would be the legalisation of pot. By regulating and legalising pot, you would allow the lower gangs not involved in meth trade to step out of the criminal underworld and become legal enterprises. This would take much of the escalation heat out of the gangs as those dealing meth would still be under pressure from Police while those not dealing meth and legally growing pot would not need the guns for protection.
The surge in guns is deeply linked to meth – without acknowledging that, an inquiry would be pretty pointless.
Collins is just trying to pretend to give a shit. Let’s see a crack down on swamp kauri that puts Collins in prison and then talk about guns.
The problem is that there are already so many guns around in this country, no matter what new controls may be brought in (which I would tend to support), it is not hard for any gang or criminals to get their hands at them, when so many homes in rural and urban New Zealand have a nice selection of guns in them.
Yes, they may be stored safely in certain ways, as I understand it is required, but burglars can manage to get their hands at them. And then there is the chance of smuggling them in, only one in ten containers is actually checked, by Customs, if not fewer.
Add the potential of some legal gun owners being in mental distress, being on drugs like meth and going haywire, and even the “legal” owners can cause a lot of damage.
The horse has bolted, it should have been addressed longer ago.
One country though seems to manage better than the US, besides of others also, and that seems to be Switzerland, with a high rate of gun ownership, but few mass shootings and such incidents, where guns are misused.
We seem to have an underbelly culture here, where some can go mad and run wild, especially where some drug use is involved. We know how lethal meth is.
To stamp that out will be a major challenge, given so many can no longer be reached by the authorities who are supposed to enforce the law. The crime stats are all window dressing, as we know, as they changed the way the police operate and the way statistics on crime are collected.
It is just as bad as with the window dressing for social security purposes, and the stats that WINZ present us. BS has reached ultimate levels in New Zealand, thanks to John Key and his great talent to make even cow shit look like chocolate or some nice dish.
The genie may be out of the bottle, but there is still a solution.
The first thing is to require all arms and owners both to be licensed.
The second is to buy back or otherwise eliminate anything other than single shot-at-a-time weapons.
The third is to throw the book at any one with an unlicensed or unsanctioned gun.
(Also, collectors can collect, if they insist, but their guns still have to be located in state-controlled arsenals.)
Trouble with that is Nick, responsible gun owners get a licence, criminals, the ones we worry about, won’t.
Martyn, rural people often have guns for protection because if you waited for the Police to arrive if in trouble, you may very well be dead by then.
True, and when the cops finally do arrive, they’re just as likely to arrest you for your personal cannabis supply instead of investigating the home invasion you called them out for, like they did to Northland mother Kelly can Gaalen.
The collectors particularly of historical firearms are rarely a safety problem for larger society. Competitive shooting, rural use and outdoor sports, are not so much an issue. The laws are very pragmatic about suitability, safety, and security.
As identified in the article the issue comes about through illegal possession of arms by those unsuitable. Shooting in NZ is very popular and legally held guns of those won’t just vanish with legislation. Indeed, it would place a greater risk of arms being disposed of to those whom don’t respect the law.
In America, there is a strong emphasis on ownership and self defence -on the right to bear arms. Here it is seen as a privilage and the vast majority of firearms licensees, know that is a responsibility not to be taken lightly.
While a knee jerk reaction in these situations is expected without proper analysis and thought ,will lead to hysterial and unbalanced decisions
Confiscating guns , more draconian gun laws are just some of these ideas but when you actually think about what you are doing by suggesting such thing is that YOU INHIBIT THE FREEDOMS OF LAW ABIDING CITIZENS
Criminals and lunatics DON’T OBEY THE LAW
pure and simple so more laws and consifcation only helps the criminal
NOT THE LAW ABIDING
Hitler disarmed the populace and armed his law enforcement agencies
These are signs of tyranny
While you say I don’t care about about gun collector’s or thier fetish?
You remove yourself from any unbiased debate by not respecting somebody’s else’s rights (you probably don’t own a firearm and therefore don’t care or think about their rights )
Would you be so blase if it was “the freedom of speech “was wanted to be curtailed ?
If you look at history when the right of gun ownership is taken away by governments the freedom of speech, religion and protest are soon to dissolve as well
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
What particular “freedom” are you referring to, Plumington? There is no “right” to possess a firearm any more than there is to drive a car.
Any suggestion of such a “right” may be common in the US, when the gun culture has resulted in thousands being killed. We don’t have a similar gun culture, and thank god for that.
Feel free to provide an example.
The thing is you agree with Collins because you know the gun situation needs looking at and sorting.
Collins’ reasons are different – she says the gun situation needs looking at because it’s a good political move. Fertile ground to prove she’s a caring person interested in protecting us. What has really changed in all the time she could have previously showed she was a caring person interested in protecting us? Has the problem suddenly arisen in the last couple of weeks?
If we legalize pot, I don’t think the gangs should be able to “step out” and keep growing pot. It should be to legit businesses with licenses not criminal organisations.
Legalisation of pot will make a lot of people redundant, ie police, lawyers, prison officers, judges and will limit gangs cash flow?
I understand why you say this, but you have to consider the reality of the situation. If people who have been involved in the black market in illegal drugs are excluded from setting up or working for legal, licensed cannabis businesses, they have little option but to continue looking for illegal income sources through their gang contacts.
Gangs became criminal organisations in the first place mainly because of the prohibition of some drugs. They wanted to take these drugs, so like the moonshiners and speakeasies during alcohol prohibition, they set up an illegal supply, which other people who also wanted those drugs then started buying from. It became a highly profitable business, but one in which the players don’t have the usual protections against unfair competition, which is where the violence comes in.
The drug law reform movement in Aotearoa learned a lot about this through the experiences of the Daktory. They tried to supply cannabis in a responsible and non-violent way, and had to resort to intensive security measures to stay non-violent but still prevent gangs coming in and taking their stock and their money to shut them down as competition. After seeing this, it’s easier to understand why the gangs drifted into their paramilitary way of operating. Decriminalizing and disarming gangs, and giving their members a legal way to make a living, is one of the biggest potential benefits of legalizing cannabis and creating a regulated market, and I would argue the same is true of all illegal drugs. Although government controlled supply, as suggested by Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, might be better than a regulated market for the four drugs that are more dangerous than alcohol according to Nutt et al (heroin, cocaine, barbiturates, and methodone).
Here’s a novel concept for you. How about the police start doing their job and enforce the laws of the land. They let a gun criminal off scott free recently because is a pretty girl from the telly.
No, Jeff, that “pretty girl from the telly” you’re referring to actually pointed out a severe flaw in gun licensing laws. Your spin is disingenuous. Your motivation is unclear.
She broke the law by using fraudulent documents (any idiot can do that)with the same result
But get away with it that’s something else
Cars kill more people per year than 50 years of gun incidents and they aren’t even designed to kill
Maybe we should just ban cars, they make automatic one of those to
And you kill more brain cells than cars on roads.
And hey. Good luck with the whole banning cars thing
Except, Plumington that cars are a necessity for modern civilisation. You can’t say the say for guns.
Remove every car from the world and the result would be obvious.
Remove every gun from the world and the result would be equally obvious.
Frank I think I need to get a fishing license so I can fish within my rights ha ha by the way you wouldn’t own a gun?
The example is to provide a reasonable amount of perspective for knee jerkers
Gun ownership, tracking and tracing is a joke in NZ?
The US Constitution is based on the notion its citizens have four “boxes” of defence to ensure EVERY human’s unalienable rights. It boils down to the soap box (freedom of speech/1st Amendment), the ballot box (democracy), the jury box (judicial). The last box, when all other boxes fail, is the bullet box (2nd Amendment). It is well known that the first thing Hitler did was disarm its population – as has been the standard mode of operation for all dictatorial/Orwellian style governments. I’m not condoning or advocating unregulated gun ownership by any means, but just warning those who think the government NEVER (as in the indefinite future) will forcibly need to be held to account by its people. If you remove every realistic means to do so, you ultimately do so at the cost of your freedom. Everyone should read the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and you might actually see all this stuff from a slightly different perspective.
What idiot thinks that civilians can win a gun fight against a government?
Erm, how about the US War of Independence!!?!???
According to historical records, both sides used muskets, knives, and iron-ball cannons.
Not many atomic weapons, drone-missiles, supersonic jetplanes, submarines, aircraft carriers, attack helicopters, etc, used by King George’s army against those Yankee upstarts…
Just wondering how many deaths have police caused by chasing cars at high speed ?
Or another thought how many deaths have police caused by shooting unarmed citizens but have used reasonable force ?I know of at least one
The stats would be interesting
Evidently, that is an urban myth, promulgated by a certain US interest group;
ref: http://propagandaprofessor.net/2011/09/26/the-myth-of-hitlers-gun-ban/
The point stands. The German Government disarmed the population. Whether that occurred under Hitler or not is ultimately a moot point. Indeed it actually only serves to further reinforce the very point I was trying to make: that we willingly give up our means of self-defence in peaceful times, but may well come to regret that decision later.
Depends on what history books you read I guess
They really restricted Jewish community on many of the points made earlier, thanks Frank ,I guess they weren’t law abiding?
What the hell is a “semi automatic machine gun”?
Machine guns are FULLY automatic.
You said self defence is no reason to own a firearm, you are correct, and that is already the law and has been for some time. Try telling a firearms officer that you keep guns for self defence and you’ll be stripped of your guns and your licence immediately.
I personally only have a couple rifles for hunting but I know several people who own pistols and what you would call ‘assault rifles’, they are very responsible people and the level of background checks and regulation and monitoring they have to go through is more than enough. They use the firearms for competition shooting and participate in shooting tournaments, it is their sport and it is a big deal for many responsible adults.
There are people who collect machine guns and other types of military hardware in NZ, but it is illegal to fire a machine gun and extremely difficult to obtain the licence to collect them. Personally it doesn’t interest me but I don’t see it as any different to collecting swords or antique crossbows. Once again these are adults not mindless apes like the crims you lot like to hug. More to the point, there has never been a shooting involving machine guns in New Zealand, ever.
You insist on banning certain types of guns (which you don’t seem to have any knowledge about, semi automatic machine gun??) but then go on to say that banning drugs doesn’t work so they should be legalised, do you not see the contradiction there?
Forget about attacking NZ gun culture, attack NZ CRIMINAL CULTURE instead.
There are over 230,000 licenced gun owners in NZ (that is nearly how many people voted for the Greens last election) do you think any of them will ever want to vote for your lot when all you talk about is more regulation and control of peoples lives? New Zealanders are sick and tired of being controlled and treated like idiots. Hence why support for the left is shrinking.
I can not understand why people like you feel the need to force your standards on others. Live and let live, don’t intrude on the (already heavily regulated) lives of other ADULTS.
Luckily most Kiwi voters share my thoughts and will never vote Labour or Green, you’re rapidly becoming an echo chamber of smug gits. The more you rant, the more throw stuff at politicians, the more you try to suppress free speech and individual rights, the more stuff you try to ban and regulate, the more people are going to distance themselves from the left.
I don’t care if this doesn’t get past your mods either, this site is a joke.
Regards
Ex Labour supporter
I know, the semi automatic machine gun bit made me cringe too. But I’m the minority on the left at seeing the anti gun hysteria as embarrassing. Remember when the left flocked to Spain to fight fascism?
What the hell is a “semi automatic machine gun”?
Machine guns are FULLY automatic.
You said self defence is no reason to own a firearm, you are correct, and that is already the law and has been for some time. Try telling a firearms officer that you keep guns for self defence and you’ll be stripped of your guns and your licence immediately.
I personally only have a couple rifles for hunting but I know several people who own pistols and what you would call ‘assault rifles’, they are very responsible people and the level of background checks and regulation and monitoring they have to go through is more than enough. They use the firearms for competition shooting and participate in shooting tournaments, it is their sport and it is a big deal for many responsible adults.
There are people who collect machine guns and other types of military hardware in NZ, but it is illegal to fire a machine gun and extremely difficult to obtain the licence to collect them. Personally it doesn’t interest me but I don’t see it as any different to collecting swords or antique crossbows. Once again these are adults not mindless apes like the crims you lot like to hug. More to the point, there has never been a shooting involving machine guns in New Zealand, ever.
You insist on banning certain types of guns (which you don’t seem to have any knowledge about, semi automatic machine gun??) but then go on to say that banning drugs doesn’t work so they should be legalised, do you not see the contradiction there?
Forget about attacking NZ gun culture, attack NZ CRIMINAL CULTURE instead.
There are over 230,000 licenced gun owners in NZ (that is nearly how many people voted for the Greens last election) do you think any of them will ever want to vote for your lot when all you talk about is more regulation and control of peoples lives? New Zealanders are sick and tired of being controlled and treated like idiots. Hence why support for the left is shrinking.
I can not understand why people like you feel the need to force your standards on others. Live and let live, don’t intrude on the (already heavily regulated) lives of other ADULTS.
Luckily most Kiwi voters share my thoughts and will never vote Labour or Green, you’re rapidly becoming an echo chamber of smug gits. The more you rant, the more throw stuff at politicians, the more you try to suppress free speech and individual rights, the more stuff you try to ban and regulate, the more people are going to distance themselves from the left.
I don’t care if this doesn’t get past your mods either, this site is a joke.
Regards
Ex Labour supporter
My point exactly +100
get rid of the meth and most of the problem will be solved
Prohibition for anything, including firearms does not work!
Really? So you think a free-for-all with firearms is a clever idea?
Maybe chuck in some child porn and selling enriched uranium to ISIS?
Nah, I think not, Jexla.
People got hold of illegal firearms illegally, changing the law will stop it from happening again.
This is a train of thought that contains zero logic. Zero, nada, zip.
Bradbury at his finest. More whining with idealistic views to wrap every New Zealander in so much cotton wool, we could barely breathe.
I don’t entirely agree there, he’s been one of NZ’s best opponents of prohibition lately, the problem with my brothers and sisters of the left is that we’ve been subjected to anti weapons gaslighting by liberal oligarchs who aren’t progressive and should be ignored so that we can get back to being that vigorous, lively and fearless left of the Spanish Civil War era. To some extent it’s a generation gap; somewhere between the mod years and the punk years you had all that flower power bs that turned most of the left into establishment pussies who share the liberal oligarchs’ taste for banning things and being ‘inclined to agree with Matthew’.
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