Not a Russian rocket. Russia no longer has them.

“For The Children”.

Exactly what the Azov types and other Nazis would do. Have been doing in the Donbass this last 8 years.

They’ve got Form for egregious violence: they film it and post it online, which is where I’ve seen it. We all know who the savages are in this conflict, and it ain’t the Russians. Read this link. It’s very interesting:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/04/more-evidence-that-ukraine-fired-the-missile-which-killed-dozens-in-kramatorsk.html#more

The one thing that sticks out a mile in nearly every “debate” regarding Ukraine, is the utterly vacuous logic (yes, an oxymoron) being displayed by people who should stick to their knitting, and leave the real discussion to the adults.. All the information that shows this to be irrevocably a Western propaganda attack on a level with the filth that the Brits, Americans, and their allies in Europe spewed over their populations before WW1… How easy was it to get the flock ramped up with the same facile rubbish this time? By the look of what I’m seeing on this, and other comment sections, really bloody easy…

Julian, that’s a German news site: they would say that, wouldn’t they. I have seen Ukrainian army video footage of their forces entering Bucha after the withdrawal of Russian troops. Aside from one corpse in military uniform, there were no bodies anywhere. That includes in destroyed cars and the like on the roads.

I have since seen cellphone footage of bodies – civilians – in the street. Each of those bodies had a white armband, which signifies a Russian supporter, as doubtless you’re aware.

There was a notable lack of blood having pooled around those bodies. Which suggests that they’d been killed elsewhere and then moved. There may have been some actors among them, but from what the footage showed, they looked to be dead.

So: the event may well have been staged, but it doesn’t follow that people hadn’t been shot. The question is: who shot them? The Azov battalion has Form for doing that sort of thing. They crow about it, post video footage online to confirm it.

Absent evidence to the contrary, this looks like a false flag incident. It has all the hallmarks.

And if your still not convinced, then god help us all

unfortunately I wasn’t referring to its past .All this was happening in the present

Please tell us which are the conspiracy theories?

“…first news of alleged atrocities by Americans in Iraq? Complete disbelief?
Why not?”

When you’ve been alive as long as I have, you’ve seen it all before. No, it didn’t come as a surprise: the US military had pre-existing Form for that sort of behaviour, unfortunately.

“…instead of whataboutism….”

I agree with this. There’s no need to adduce US and UK behaviour in particular, in this story. It ought to be solely about the Ukraine. That said, the Bucha story has all the hallmarks of a false flag narrative. We have seen all of this sort of thing many times before. And the reaction of Western powers lends support to it being a false flag. People were expecting a chemical attack to be the false flag. That may still come, of course. That’s what happened in Syria, as you no doubt recall.

Pop: please don’t link Bellingcat as an authoritative commenter on this situation. Or anything else, really.

And you know this how exactly? Is that what US/UK propaganda tells you, is it?

garibaldi: “…the US doesn’t blunder into these conflicts, they plan them well in advance…”

Yes indeed. You’re quite correct. I was perhaps being too generous to the US in suggesting that it just lacks the intelligence (of both sorts) to think through the implications of starting the conflicts in which it has notoriously been involved, particularly in the ME, and elsewhere of course.

But it has certainly turned the military cock-up into an art form over many years. Millions of people have died or been displaced as a consequence.

Julian: speaking of fake news and conspiracy thinking, your comment neatly exemplifies the comprehensive propagandisation to which we in the west have been subjected for all of my considerable life.

“…Putin sympathisers…”

This is an epithet, not a considered argument. You might as well have called us all “Putin fanboys”. It wouldn’t be the first time, in my case.

Consider this: the fact that there are so many dissenting voices on this comment thread provides an indication that the propaganda is increasingly failing to be effective.

People see and read the news, then read countervailing perspectives on the internet. And when said countervailing perspectives are backed up by evidence – remember Wikileaks? – it dawns on many of us that we were lied to. This leads inevitably to scepticism about every other narrative being pushed by the US/UK in particular. That cold war nonsense, which haunted us from the 1950s onward: read this to understand its provenance:
“The Devil’s Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America’s Secret Government” a book by David Talbot.

Do you not recall the invasion of Afghanistan? The invasion of Iraq? The bombing of Libya? The tragedy of Serbia in the late 90s? All of them tragedies, actually, for which some western leaders ought to have faced trial for war crimes. But did not, regrettably. Still and all, there’s a special place in Hell reserved for Blair, G W Bush, Clinton and Obama.

I advise you to read. Start with David Talbot, but there is much else. Online, try the US site Consortium news, set up by the late great Robert Parry. Or MoonofAlabama, also a US site. And The Saker (another US site). There are many others.