National and NZF have stated they will not proceed with ACTs race baiting Treaty Principles Referendum beyond first reading, so why are we wasting all that taxpayers money to run a piece of legislation through to first reading with zero intention of taking it further?
This hard right, racist, climate denying, beneficiary bashing, disabled abusing Government are cutting public services left right and centre to save money, yet here we have a Bill that National and NZF have promised won’t go any further yet we are all paying for this pantomime!
Why are we funding Bills that will go no where when we are cutting public health and public services?
Why do we have money for right wing vanity projects but we don’t have money for public services?
Why is it ok to waste money for Right wing political stunts but not actual public services?
How much must you hate Jacinda for having the temerity to save 20 000 lives during a once in a century pandemic to justify all this right wing spite?
There is a photo of David on News room where he looks like a merekat standing on lookout duties .The merekat would be far more intellegent though.This government is hell bent on wasting money on stupidity like maori bashing and dumping world class infrastucture into cook straight and not having a plan to replace it .No doubt Willis is spending millions paying contactors to come up with a plan as she is incapable .
Yes … it’s extraordinary that these self described geniuses of the economy, who made a lot of noise to gain power, about self interest, wasteful, nice to have, spending, happen to be, by far, the biggest
wasters of money out of all of them.
As the full forensic costings of this is tabled by the media, for the public consumption, the backlash will be substantial, because, as we know, more than anything, the public to not like wasteful spending hypocrites!
gordon may I ask what is a merekat?
go to a zoo numb nuts
More amateur moronic prose by Bob the troll
Spelling old chap spelling.
Let’s put facts on the table the treaty principles favor pakeha not Maori. You think that getting rid of principles is gonna do pakeha any good? Remember the principles water down Maori sovereignty because if it was interpreted as per international law that govern treaties than Maori have “Tino Rangatiratanga” (sovereignty) over their lands and resources. The English version is null & void because majority chiefs signed the Maori version that is very different to the english version so to make matters fair & equal the judiciary cautiously created principles following their english Magna Carta & international law which are:
1) The Principle of Government
2) The principle of Partnership
3) The Principle of Equality
4) The Principle of Cooperation
5) The Principle of Redress
6) The Principle of Management
7) The principle of Protection
I could equally say that in terms of contract law if there was no ‘meeting of minds’ when the Treaty was signed then it is legally void.
Then again, I could say that the Treaty is null and void because it was overwritten by the 1852 Constitution Act which determined how NZ would be governed.
Andrew, historic literacy isn’t your thing I get it however treaties aren’t contracts they’re partnerships establish through international norms even the english “Magna-Carta” supports these practices.
And the 1852 constitution was a major breach of this partnership excluding the treaty partner and the document itself.
Pakeha Settlers increasingly demanded the right to govern themselves. A new parliament was set up in 1854, but maori were not represented in it prior to 1868, and few were eligible to even participate in elections. The new all-Pakeha Assembly represented only settlers interest, awesome democracy don’t yah think?
That was felt keenly by many rangatira (Chiefs), who rightfully feared that they were being subjected to the laws of the settlers whose interests were opposed to their own. That was what they hadn’t signed up to in the Treaty.
Successive New Zealand Govts seemed more intent on imposing British laws on maori then recognising their rights under Article two of the Treaty to administer their own affairs. This situation intensified after the emergence of the Kingitanga (Maori King movement) in 1858, which came about in response to Maori concerns about the loss of both land and sovereignty. It has been suggested that government determination to assert its sovereignty – to turn its back on Te Tiriti and instead uphold a narrow version of the Treaty – was the overarching causes of war.
Once the Government had achieved dominance, large-scale of land purchases would be much easier to achieve. So to would British law on Maori and their enforced assimilation into settler colonial society.
Apparently, life isn’t fair Stephen! But it surely beats being an illiterate stone-age cannibal, eh?
those people were far from illiterate and most of the imports at the time were for from squeaky clean and were sent here as punishment or to get away from being held to account .
Andrew pakeha ate humans did you know?
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/europe-and-its-cannibals/
Yes, Stephen Pakeha ate humans, but they probably wouldn’t eat Andrew he would be unsavory
The real Andrew has stepped out and my what nasty piece of work can you give back our land Andrew you thief
Literature or literacy stephen?
Your posts are completely stupid based on your rewriting of history.
Oh Bob the amateur moron, suggesting others don’t know their history when you weren’t even born here and even if you were you don’t offer any evidence to the contrary. Fuck off you idiot.
The New Zealand Constitution Act 1852 was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that granted self-government to the Colony of New Zealand. It was the second such Act, the previous 1846 Act not having been fully implemented. The purpose of the Act was to have constitutional independence from Britain.
Bob, get a buy a new brain
Sorry the muddled grammar has me beaten.
What Maori are those? The Maori slaves that finally had protection from their Maori slave owners or the Maori elites (as it was then as it is now) who position allowed them to fill their own pockets?
You talk of ‘Maori’ as if they’re homogenous, they’re not.
BG, did you know Maori slaves could become (rangatira) leaders of the hapu (subtribes) that enslaved them? Historic literacy my friend is the cure to ignorance.
James Caddell is a pure example of this practice. He was taken prisoner and enslaved by Māori on Stewart Island in 1810 and then grew up among his captors, is an extraordinary one.
James Caddell is said to have been a lad of only 16 when he arrived off South Cape, Stewart Island, in the sealer Sydney Cove. Five sailors and the boy Caddell set off in a sealing boat for the island. As soon as they landed they were attacked by a party of Māori led by Honekai, chief of Ōue. The five men were slain, but Caddell was saved by Tokitoki, the chief’s niece, who claimed his life by throwing a cloak over him. Caddell soon adapted to the ways of his captors. Tokitoki became his wife, he submitted to being tattooed, and by his marriage and his fighting abilities he acquired the status of a chief.
deflection right there idiot that has fucken nothing to do with the treaty
It’s critical to the authenticity of the Treaty if only some Maori agreed.
The Maori elite will be the only ones who benefit the track record is there and unlikely to change.
That’s crux of it for people like you Bob. Someone with brown skin might make some money. You’d offer fellatio to rich white mean but simply can’t stand the idea that Māori might succeed, from having an actual promise from the crown delivered on.
And what elite is benefitting at the moment from all our land and assets sales bob
you’re just another supplicant to the Crown – you may as well just go and lick the governor generals boots while Luxon gives you a reach around
Sorry but I’m not familiar with the terminology you use.
Because it’s terminology for 5 year olds and above Bob the moron..
Because it’s terminology for 5 year olds and above Bob the moron..
Mr Luxon really does look like “Incel Dave’s” bitch sometimes. There is no end to the greasy chicanery of the three CoC parties so it is quite likely that there will be tactical amendments to Acts “Trexit”–nice one Martyn– that the Natzos will be suddenly be able to live with.
Māoridom is uniting to an extent I have not seen previously in my lifetime, so there will be a strong reaction if Baldrick proceeds down the Trexit road.
I agree there will be a strong reaction and they might be surprised at who will also support Maoridom against them. I sure don’t look the part to be supporting Māori, but I will be doing so.
What we don’t need with all the other problems we face as a nation and in the world, is Seymour dividing and ruling. He doesn’t represent the people who want the best for NZders.
I will be joining you on the front line Joy along with my Maori whanau and I am a very pale person.
Good analysis. We have known Seymour and ACT to be separatist since it’s inception.
Seymore is basically an English Maaori who does not know whether he is Arthur or Martha IMHO.
Does the same apply to all Maori of mixed race or only to those you choose.
nah – it’s worse than that – he’s a sell out to the highest dollar – the only reason they are attacking the treaty because it stands in the way of corporate hegemony over our assets like water and the seabed. these muppets want to be able to buy and own them. it’s pure projection – they are painting Maori as the villian for wanting to keep these assets inclusive when they’re the evil bastards wanting private and exclusive use (via “crown’ concession and land title)
Good points Tiger.
I believe we have seen the easing up by Nats and NZ First already.
First you have Seymour saying Luxon was being rude and disrespectful by saying he wouldn’t support the bil, second you have Winston saying he wasn’t sure Luxon won’t change his mind and thirdly you have Luxon saying that he believes Maori ceded sovereignty to the crown.
Add those three together and you can see it’s the 8% telling the 6% and the 38% what is going to happen.
I also believe the submitters to the select committee will be so numerous that the same sort of selection process that was attempted for the Fast Track legislation will be used. This will mean the vast majority will support the bill so Luxon and Peters will be able to say they have no option but to agree.
It will only be mobilisation of the opposition on the streets that will stop this bill. I marched once in my student days at the time of the Vietnam war. I am prepared to get the Zimmer frame serviced and do it again.
Heh, ditto, good on you Uncle, gordon and joy. We work in with local Māori in the Far North already on all sorts, and it is interesting who is getting in touch with who and various planning meetings. I am not quite on a zimmer frame but tomorrow is not yet here…
I was at school towards the end of Vietnam war and we got bollocked by the Headmaster for holding a lunchtime demo in the quad, and outside the local RSA which was probably not the best idea…my parents who were in WWII as a nurse and bomber navigator always encouraged me to speak out.
If National nor NZ First won’t support the bill, that’s democracy, surely. You can’t purport to govern for all New Zealanders only when it suit?
Joining the front line will ensure election victory for the right for years to come.
I’d be careful joining the frontline if you’re standing behind them Bob, with your pants down at the ready.
The rest of your post is just your usual crap.
The question is, why does the money behind Act want to remove treaty principles interpretations and completely get rid of the treaty?
They want to remove right of first refusal on government land sales in their planned privatisations plus access the sea bed and conservation estate for mining.
This is the question we have to ensure is clearly heard.
Seymour’s question is not about this. He frames his question as a matter of fairness to AAAAALLLLLLLL NZ’ders. Of course, that will gain a lot of support. It sounds good. But it’s not the correct question, is it?
ACT funded by the likes of Alan Gibbs, the Atlas Group and the Mount Perelin Society ???
and the big fat horse stud owners for some reason.Might have been told there will be more free land coming your way .
“Trexit”! How’s Brexit going for the Brits?
The opposition to the Bill going ahead is that progressives don’t want non-Māori discussing the treaty and what it means.
Thats STUPID THING TO SAY ,JUST LAST WEEK A MAORI CHAP OFFERED TO DEBATE DAVID IN PUBLIC BUT HE REFUSED THE INVITE .Also he refused the invite to the hui last week .So clearly he knows he is wrong .
Ada, actually that assumption is incorrect Maori undeniably want more Non-Maori discussing our country founding document because it exposes the hypocrisy and lies peddled by politicians & redneck pundits spraying their shit everywhere as facts!
I always promote our country history warts & all even if it mentions maori cannibalism relative to topics I’m all in supportive of such discussions there nothing off the table.
When discussing our founding document also brings historic facts which isn’t favorable to pakeha society however there is also good intentions on behalf of our european brothers & sisters acknowledge in our historic records which should also be acknowledge.
We have a rich history and we shouldn’t be divided especially at a time when the world is changing dramatically we need solidarity not division that ACT is championing.
Free Aotearoa
I wonder how many made it to the fighting ranks and how many finished in the pot or were workers to death.
Going back to Roman days a few gladiators won their freedom and prospered but not many .
Fighting between tribes and countries is the way of the world .Taking the lovers into slavery was/is done all over the world so do not be ashamed of your history but do not deny it happened.
As you should not deny you may well be living on stolen land .
In answer to the question posed in the title, my response is: Because that is what was agreed in the coalition agreement, but a more interesting question is ask why Seymour accepted such an unsatisfactory deal.
I think because he knows that the publicity achieved up to the first reading will help educate average people on the Treaty and give him the general support in terms of polls that he needs to get what he’s after. Maybe as a referendum attached to the next election or to give him more votes in the next election. I see Luxon as a typical Nat; a competent manager but definitely not a leader, so he will need dragging over the line by popular support. Because there’s nothing that scares a Nat more than a bad poll.
Another possible scenario is that ACT and NZF reach a back door agreement to either establish these (fictional) principles or as Winston would prefer, to remove all references to them in acts of parliament. Either would work.
Andrew one has got to ask what are you afraid of. Is it that Maori might become more healthy, is it that the incarceration numbers go down is it that they seek to improve their outcomes in all levels of society that pakeha mostly take for granted. Or are you afraid they just might get too much and you won’t get it. The Treaty of Waitangi exists to enable us pakeha to actually live in this country any other argument is simply academic. Unfortunately this treaty was signed in blood by the majority of the chiefs. One must also ask what fool agreed to this principles bill just to have power knowing the racial divide it would cause. A vanity project you may say however even the most blue blooded rednecks amongst us might balk at such a bill which will bring many of the closet rednecks out into the open probably much to their chagrin. While we watch parliament and the smiling robot backbenchers who have no brains and support every dirty move this awful government makes, it may actually pay them to remember that they have actual constituents that don’t agree with this piece of legislation shit and when they go home they just may have to deal with the consequences of their actions and face up to the people they represent not just the lemmings who voted for them.
You’ll find most National and ACT want the best for Maori as do I. In fact, a significant percentage of ACT MPs are Maori themselves.
The real difference between us and you is that we don’t think pandering to Maori and tribalism in general are going to benefit Maori in the slightest. We see this as ‘paternal racism’. OK a few at the top will get rich on the proceeds as we have seen, but the rest will go nowhere, all while blaming white people.
Maori men need real mana and the only way to get that in the real world is to pay attention at school, get a decent job, be a good husband and raise children who do the same.
How can a man gain mana when someone is standing on his throat every day .Owning many houses and flash cars and boats is not mana .
As the child of a solo mum on benefit I can assure you that my formula works. I was brought up in the UK where class divisions are far more rigid than here in NZ. Someone else being rich doesn’t make you poor.
My prescription for Maori today would be to attend school & do their homework. Keep away from drugs and crime. Get an apprenticeship and then work hard. A quick solution for them would be to get a job on Aussie mines, save money and come back and buy a house cash. I did similar, working on mines and construction projects across Africa and the Middle East, eventually buy a house cash with half my savings at age 34.
Andrew, Its a fallacy to think that Maori aren’t educated assuming pakeha are this superior race however you’ve made fundamental mistakes on historic events and laws pertaining to the Magna Carta that rendered the 1852 constitution ACT illegal and immoral pointed out by an educated maori.
Andrew historic literacy and law isn’t you thing admit it? (fictional) principles?? So you are anti-english?? again as per-earlier comment the principles have been established using your english heritage constitution that made parliament possible. Now you don’t like it because of the “maaaaris” buhahaha keep the jokes coming lol
As a former Maori basher I think a lot more people have educated them selves than you think .The average kiwi does not want all this bull shit .Seeing as education for some is too hard try reading TRICK OR TREATY .by SIR Douglas Graham ,who was the treaty settlement minister in the bolger government and negotiated the waikato settlement .As a red neck he was shocked at what he found had happened in the land grab wars .If you need more enlitenment let me know I will list a couple more titles for you to read .
If Luxon was a real person he would tell David to fuck off and pull his head in .But he needs this race baiting to cover up all the other sadistic shit he is doing behind the smoke screen .There must be some real bad shit coming because he also has the ferret Goldsmith spewing filth about Maori stealing the beaches .No Maori has ever said to me that I can not fish on any beach but several white farmers have because they believe they own the beach
You are suggesting National break one treaty to support another one . I do not like the NZF and Act race baiting but if that is what it took to get power then so be it.
what say we break the treaty that ended world war two and start dropping nukes on japan again and bombing the shit out of europe .
“So be it”. How much money are they wasting Trevor. Start adding it up, from three waters, to ferry’s, to borrowing for tax cuts and goodness knows what else. To top it off you are happy with mindless race baiting. I thought you were somehow different to Bob the idiot but clearly I was wrong
I think they might be bed buddies of Luxon
Thanks, Gordon for reminding us not to take our eyes off the ball while we deal with this childish nonsense that Seymour has promulgated.
He is busily trying to make his agenda sound ‘pretty legal’ and sensible.
We have to remember that ACT wouldn’t be trying to undermine the Treaty unless there was a good financial reason for them to do so. They are being farmed by their bosses and in turn, they are trying to farm us.
If the Treaty is a meaningless big nothing, ambiguous, out of date and superseded as some suggest, why are they trying so hard to get rid of it. It must have some value to us, if it is such a problem for them.
Its very valuable Joy it’s our founding document even in it ambiguity in the interpretations it keeps sovereignty and assurance to all New Zealanders.
The only thing Hone could do at that range is to bring his knee up into seymour’s little mouse-balls.
Moth balls more like
Liverpool Kiss and bring the knee up!
“How much must you hate Jacinda for having the temerity to save 20 000 lives during a once in a century pandemic to justify all this right wing spite?”
Yes this is a simple truth.
The hard right wing absolutely hated the world wide success of JA and bitterly endured Covid
and in fact have tried to down play Covid almost to the point of saying it never actually happened.
They hated the fact that Labour won in a land slide in 2020. An ignominious thrashing.
They hated the fact that despita Bill Englishachieving a Majority vote victory in 2017
was beaten by Peters waka jumping to the left simply because some National MP’s
criticised his superannuation over payment.
They also hate the fact that JA stood down from the leadership so she
could not be voted out and remains undefeated as it were.
So by 2023 the right wing were absolutely desperate to win and were intent on
absolute revenge and thus reverted to type.
They ran the one policy campaign which has won them countless elections these last 50 years.
1.Blame Maori for all the worlds problems.
2. Blame the left wing woke communist feminist Greenies for supporting the Maori.
3. Solution. Vote in a hard right pro White /anti Maori Government.
4. Worked for Muldoon,1975 worked for Bolger, 1990 worked for Key 2008 works all the time.
So the White majority is like in 2020 we vote Labour because we love Jacinda our savior Queen.
Three years later the same White majority say oh crisis averted so JA you can go ######
We going home to the Maori bashing Government we really love.
What does that say about the White voters?
Little wonder Maori want our own Parliament.
When you are constantly at the mercy of the of the White majority who always fall for the blame the Maori punish the Maori election campaigns.
Why bother voting in such a system.
I only voted once and that was in 1978 then I gave up because I realised it was pointless
Unfortunately the majority of New Zealander’s and a number of New Immigrants are into Maaori Bashing, te Maaori have been one of the most successful native races world wide, at maintaining their culture and tradition’s which have virtually been snuffed out in other countries around the world. Maaori Bashing is a go to position for the Right Wing Parties, and a sure vote winner for National, ACT and NZF Parties.
yes and they contribute 20% of GDP .My redneck in laws were gob smacked when I pointed that out to them and guess what its not from owning multiple houses its real income from producing something and wise investing in infrastructure like the massive inland port in Kitiktiroa .
Just looked it up and about 70 billion dollars last year. This is the sort of statistic that needs to be advertised, not prison numbers.
Keeping culture strong, as Ngungukai said, and allowing it to be shared with all of us, has benefitted each and every NZder including Mr. Seymour and all those other grim-faced, dead-eyed ACT MPs.
yes its very interesting reading ,and confronting for the red necks most of whom dont do a decent thing in their lives .
A quick catch up on history.
Between 1840 and 1890 some 900,000 White people invaded these lands.
Millions of acres were stolen.
Maori who refused to sell were conquered.
Maori and European liived apart for 100 years 1840 -1940 in an apartheid existence.
By 1940 White people had assumed absolute control of these lands politically ,culturally socially.
By the 1970’s a small Maori political movement demanded that the consequences of the invasion
1840-1890 be recognised and compensated for.
Reluctantly after 150 years a small apology was made by Government (not the White people )
Essentially the Government did eventually pay Maori 2% of what was owed.
Now the hard right Government wants the 2% paid back.
So basically 99% of Maori were adversely affected by the White invasion 1840-1890.
No Pakeha were adversely affected by the Treaty claims process.
99% of Maori will not benefit from the Treaty claim settlement.
Yet the White majority with their overwhelming vote can demand the 2% payment back.
A Maori steals a car he goes to prison.
A white man steals a country he gets a Knighthood.
Love that Pakeha justice system eh.
well said ,you have hit the nail right on the head there .
There is such simplicity in the truth thank you for the best explanation of racist Aotearoa
yet – it’s maori that are the issue? where have these race baiting “one nation” arseholes been for the last 200 years? Standing right in front of us and putting Maori down since forever.
We have a White Skinhead Baldrick Luxon, an English Maaori Neoliberal Seymore and Scottish Italian Maaori all wanting to deal to the Maaori population in NZ and wanting to turn the clock backwards another 50 Years.
Seymour is just the pus on the festering foreskin of a sewer rat.
Fuck I nearly regurgitated me pub pie at the thought of it
In 1981 the country was evenly split on being anti-arpartheid or rugby. The half the population who clearly saw the injustice in South Africa were prompted to look in the mirror, look at assimilation, a breached treaty at home and set about redress. Those kiwi have bred a couple more generations of let’s say nonracist pakeha.
Many of the rugby loving kiwis later came to realise their views were on the wrong side of history.
Kiwis who go to Aus are appalled at the treatment aboriginals receive and all the casual wog racism.
This government think they are playing cute canning a TV program called Fair Go just because they don’t believe in it.
However, the idea that you can have a “Voice” referendum like in Aus without tearing the country apart is completely irresponsible leadership. I would expect the protests would kick off where the violent protest left off with last Springbok Test in 1981.
it’s so clumsy and obvious – yet their sycophants lap it up like stupid slathering dogs
I was asked to step in and become president of a small sports club that was being torn apart by a small group of elite entitled athletes .The so called elite had fancy uniforms and club money was used to sponsor them .
After talking to other members I agreed to take the roll .We ,the committee ,decided that all members would be treated as equals because with out the rest of the non elite there would be no club and that would be a sad outcome .We gained sponsorship so all members had the same uniform and were treated the same .We quickly became recognised nationaly and grew from a small club to the biggest junior club in NZ at that time .Other clubs enquired how that had happened and were staggered to find out we had no elitism even though we had our national champions .
So no maori grants, no govt grants for your club, just grass root support and sausage sizzle fund raisers, plus private sponsorship.
Well done Gordon, see….not everything fails when govt handouts are stopped/not given.