So National demand a debate do they?

1. So, when your own party has completely disintegrated, I guess this is one way to try and jump ship.
   …Keep the National Party in name only, – while trying to gain control of whatever the other is doing, – regardless of what that might me.

   • This is about Collins trying to get to xmas before the exorcism of the National party leader annual xmas party barbecue ritual.

     • If she were genuine in wanting more open debate for all Kiwis then step one would be for her to go to her mates at the Herald and get them to remove the paywall on all such discussions. As is, poorer Kiwis are being locked out of the debate, in a deliberate and calculated manner.

     • trying to get to xmas

       And she’s asked Don Brash to finance it:
       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300355767/email-says-judith-collins-asked-don-brash-to-raise-300000-for-billboards-on-treaty-of-waitangi-issues

       • Collins states this debate is about transparency, then will not confide whether she had contact with Brash.
         Collins is about as transparent as an Oravida Water bottling overseas trip.

         • Or as that sworn-to-secrecy Internal Review, remember?
           The Nat MPs themselves could only view it one at a time and only after agreeing on complete silence about whatever they read.

           How about a debate over that.. heh

   • BREAKING NEWS!

     https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300355767/email-says-judith-collins-asked-don-brash-to-raise-300000-for-billboards-on-treaty-of-waitangi-issues

     Collins in bed with Brash and now race baiting.
     All with the backing of Peter Goodfellow.
     Neither will confirm this however so what is their secret agenda?

2. Look Martyn, you say the campaign is clever? Not any more! The billboards could have been effective if it wasn’t for one huge critical error – they have Collins’ stupid grinning mugshot on them. Now it’s a campaign for Collins instead, and so it’s a lost cause right there. Fear not. They won’t work. How dumb is Collins and how dumb are these National strategists??!!!! God, she needs to go soon! Like next week please.

   • who will replace her?
     Where is the support network for National?
     Is there one?
     How robust is the Party machinery?
     The Farming sector will never support an Auckland tax lawyer.

     • Hello Shona
       Did you ever read Asterix and the Spy?…all the speech bubbles turn green whenever the little spy appears in a frame. That’s Collins…poison. She is beyond saving. It’s only a matter of time, or the next bad poll. Let’s assume for now that it will be someone like Luxon, with a half-confident looking team running for PM. If so, then I think Labour will be in deep shit come the election. Mark my words. Why? All those conservative votes gifted to Labour last time? They will come back. Also, by then we’ll all be over CV19, and most of us will have learnt that (contrary to popular belief) it’s not THAAAAAT outrageously difficult to manage Covid in NZ. We’re an island. We have only one critical airport. We have no tube trains or metro rail. Kiwis on the whole are placid and compliant, so they do what they’re told. You don’t need Jacinda’s limited management skills to manage that. You and I could do it with Ashley telling us what to say at 1pm on TV1. So I firmly believe the difference at the election will be ‘who looks the better future manager of the country, the budgets and the economy’. The housing issues, the child poverty, the cancelled infrastructure, the rising debt, house price failure, the stupid AKL Inner city Rail Link all the way to Mt Eden thing, cones everywhere, the Hate Speech thing, increased crime all over NZ, Labour giving gangs money, ALL of those things will come into play. Of course, if Jacinda and her govt had only 10% of Luxon’s management skills most of her big promises would be on track now and the Right would have no chance whatsoever for the next 15 years. But she doesn’t. Nor do her ministers. There is plenty proof of that. It will be fascinating. Can’t wait.

       • Hmm yeah Luxon? An evangelical ( climate change denier)who shut off Air NZ flights to most provincial airports?’ A John Key clone without the shithouse rat cunning. Nah the farming sector won’t go for him either even if he is the required stale pale male.The Natzis will have to form a coalition with Act to govern.
         But agreed Collins is poison it’s always been so.

         • Shona on Luxon, yes he has that profile and many employees are not adorned with his management skills and their is also evidence of that.
           So in theory The Kraut, National need to find someone from left field, however, given he has the JK stamp of approval he will be Nationals next leader.

         • Shona…hmm….yes…a hyped up professional local politician with a PR degree and no real life experience outside of Wellington and no management skills other than selling fish and chips in sleepy Waikato town. You see? The bar is set so low these days that anyone can be PM. So yes, Luxon would qualify amply. For one, he does have beliefs and principles. Not sure if Jacinda has any…otherwise she would have taken an open stance on Cannabis. But she didn’t because she would have pissed off her new friends, the ex National voters. But they won’t vote for her again. They are all waiting for Collins to go. Soon Shona soon.

           • No you are wrong, Luxin is not principled, he is a businessman and is about profit above all else including people’s lives, exactly like Key and his snake oiled salesman reputation.
             Ardern has spades on him .

3. Regardless of the obvious necessity for public input, under the bribe taken by the media it is simply not possible to have a genuine debate – or at least one that is accessible to the broader public.

   “As Seymour noted in Parliament, the guidelines that determine eligibility for the millions of dollars on offer make it very explicit what position media must take on the Treaty.

   The section describing the fund’s goals recommends “actively promoting the principles of Partnership, Participation and Active Protection under Te Tiriti o Waitangi acknowledging Māori as a Te Tiriti partner“.

   And the first of the general eligibility criteria requires all applicants to show a “commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi and to Māori as a Te Tiriti partner”.

   In short, anyone sceptical of the proposition that the Treaty implies a “partnership” seems very unlikely to get any money. Yet, that question is exactly what is contested by the many critics of Maori-Crown co-governance plans who are alarmed at the prospect of 15 per cent of the population being granted equal say with the other 85 per cent in many spheres of New Zealand life.”
   https://democracyproject.nz/2021/07/08/graham-adams-a-question-about-the-55m-media-fund-made-ardern-laugh-but-not-for-long/

   Thumb up 41 Thumb down 0REPLY REPORTJULY 11, 2021 2:34PM

   • Yes DG. You have to wonder, how likely is it that the strongest economic and military power of the age would go into equal “partnership” with a few hundred thousand neolithic indigenous people? According to Elizabeth Rata, the term “partnership” was first used by the Lange-Douglas government (yet another problem they’re responsible for).

4. Let’s hear National debate the Ponzi nature of the financial system, and the accelerating Planetary Meltdown, and the declining energy availability, and the mal-investment successive governments-both National and Labour- have made in infrastructure that will have no utility a year or two from now…..

5. Ha ! Brilliant stuff @ MB.
   National Party.
   The fama’s party dahlings…
   Famers? You really need to look beyond the bulge in those blue bloomers.
   rnz
   “US buying up our primary industries.”
   United States citizens and companies are buying up New Zealand land for farming, forestry and wine-making, an RNZ analysis reveals.
   Almost 180,000 hectares of farming land was purchased or leased by foreign interests between 2010 and 2021.
   Soooooooo….???
   The same rnz reporter ,Farah Hancock, Data journalist, In Depth, also wrote this.
   “Who’s eating New Zealand?”
   “New Zealand produces enough food to feed about 40 million people but given our population is just 5 million, who are these people we’re feeding and what are they eating?
   And in the land of milk and honey, how much is left behind for Kiwis?
   RNZ has looked at some of our biggest merchandise export earners and some of our highest profile products to see who has been eating and drinking New Zealand over the past 30 years.”
   NZ farmers?
   You have been soooooooo fucked over. I mean beyond the known universe fucked. I mean more well and truly fucked than six well and truly fucked things on international well and truly fucked things day.
   And what’s more? The natzo’s became the sum of it’s Auckland money lender and bankster parts then they unzipped their panties and pulled out little stubbi back in the late 1930’s and they’ve been giving you what oh ever since.
   Farmers? You produce enough food to feed forty million people. I’d a thought it’d a been far more than that.
   And that’s not including the wools, pelts and sundry other bi-products, most of which you don’t get paid for.
   So where’s you money then? There’s only 52 thousand of you. ( I’d a thought it’d a been many less than that?)
   Where’s your money? You should all be multimillionaires? Why are you being fucked by the banksters? Why is there are corrupt IRD making sure you’re permanently in debt to the banks? ( Foreign owned.) When, in reality you should have a bank of you own.
   Who set you up? I can tell you who it wasn’t. It wasn’t city people who’ve been just as fucked as you. So who was it?
   Clue. It’s blue? It’s begging for your vote then fucking you for your money? It swindles, lies and misleads you by using msm delivered then psychologically implanted logical fallacies and old fashioned bullying to get what it wants and it’s got a short, stumping, freak show in a frock who looks like pig muldoon in drag?
   AO/NZ farmers and AO/NZ urban belong together. We need each other. We’d be great together.
   national live in grave fear of that ever happening because it’s make farmers impossible to manipulate then exploit. So there, with raspberries !

6. Debate?
   No housing unless Mum and Dad can loan to their children.
   Debate?
   Staff in correction facilites working 23 hours (not 24 that would be illegal).
   Debate?
   several million to Gangs to provide ‘Meth’ rehabilitation.
   Debate?
   125th in vaccine rollout
   Debate?
   homelessness
   Debate?
   Childpoverty
   Debate?
   I can totally see why any Labour supporter would not want anyone ask for a debate. – Heck they would not even want to debate themselves prior to election. Jacinda Ardern of 2016 would have a field day with Jacinda Ardern of 2021.

   • Lets not forget we have only had a Labour government for eight months before that it was coalition with national holding the majority of seats and they still claim they won.
     Lets have a debate on why National created the housing crisis. Why they sold off as much state housing as they could and why they created the child poverty we have now.
     Lets have a debate about Nationals response to Covid.

     It takes more than eight months to fix the damage of nine years of National.

     • Yes, in an MMP environment Labour was elevated by Winston Peters / NZFirst and the Green Party to lead the government.
       Without Winston Peters and the Greens joining the coalition government, Labour would have set on the opposition bench, and considering all the points above it would not have made an iota of difference if they had.
       And the last election was won by Covid. In the meantime house prices rose faster then ever before, and our Hospital system can not cope with the normal flu season due to underfunding and Ministerial incompetence.
       And i do hope that Labour loses its majority and is forced to go into a coalition again, and I hope that the submissive Green Party will not be enough.

       But yeah, lets us not debate any of the above.

       • Yawn.

       • ” Labour would have set on the opposition bench, and considering all the points above it would not have made an iota of difference if they had.” Are you trying to be funny? Earth to dittohead, the whole machinery of government has been restocked with those who have a vested/philosophical stake in the final destruction of everything the first labour government built to project NZ into the first world… Do you fail that badly to grasp just how many booby traps, and minefields have been set by the supporters of tory/colonial power within those ministries created to actually help the whole of society? The utterly shallow, and self serving drivel I’m seeing masquerading as “informed comment” on these pages is worrying to say the least.. And yours is just another goat pellet dropping into the bucket already overflowing with shit…

     • Well said CS

     • So too cowardly to run on their own record of no kiwi build, kids in motels, parents in motels, failing hospitals and no increase of pay for nurses (mind they can just go to oz now) etc.
       Labour 2023 – Yeah, nah nah!

       • Try to get your stories at least half right, Sabine!
         There are houses that have been built under Labour’s watch – thousands of them. Unlike your lot who demolished state houses, to say nothing of PB’s meth scam and what that did to ruin the housing market! (Ironic she’s now in real estate!!)!
         And what’s wrong with parents and kids in motels? They usually are during school holidays. (OK, a smart-arse comment but like for like, Sabine).
         And guess who stuffed up the public health system in his short time as Health Minister? Why, Jonathan Coleman who then resigned as MP and Health Minister and, surprise, surprise took a job in charge of running the private health sector! Cozy coincidence.
         Re the nurses, keep watching that space…
         Labour 2023 – by a landslide! Mostly because of the state of the shambolic Opposition. Keep it up, Nats!

7. A debate is necessary.
   What labour campaigned on has not been delivered.
   What they didn’t is being progressed.

   • Totally agree and I am a forever Labour voter. Except in 2023 when I will literally vote for anyone else! I cant remember a time in my life when I despised a government like this one and believed me, I detested the Key government. What I voted for is not what we have got. Information on all manner of things is being controlled and whenever a stone is uncovered, its always worse than we expected.

     Jacinda has utterly failed NZ, I waited years for Labour to get its act together and this is what we get. No Social Democracy, a truckload of words about kindness and transparency when what we get is authoritarianism and vindictiveness. As for democracy – Labour does not believe in or value democracy. History will show that this government will be known as the most divisive nightmarish one we have had since the Muldoon years.

     I dont like national, I dont like Judith but I utterly support the right of New Zealanders to have a very robust conversation about what we want and where we are going. I love this country and if we value it, we must stand together in consensus not coercion.

     • Took the words right out of my mouth, Binky.

8. Your points are all valid but are related to internal National Party politics and unless they are sorted National will remain where they are in the polls. However that said the demand for an open debate on the way the country is going needs to be aired in public. Even you have expressed concern about the hidden agenda behind the moves that were not made clear at the election.
   It probably would not have changed the result of the election but it would be good to know what to expect .

   • Nope. The majority is happy with Jacinda. Just you old boomers are becoming irrelevant as is your favourite shambles.

9. I remember a certain leader not campaigning on raising GST in fact told the voting public of N.Z. ” I will not raise GST” He then went on to raise GST almost immediately.
   This is why Collins is being disingenuous, all parties have done this through the years. This is Collins trying to cement her leadership rather than any National campain versus Labour, otherwise why was the National party president there?
   Once National have an effective and respectable leader they may make inroads as The Kraut has highlighted.

   • Won’t be too long Bert. Will be fascinating to observe Jacinda when she gets some real flak. By that I mean polling results going back towards the low 40s or high 30s, which is bound to happen. We’ll all have a lot more fun here.

     • Nobody wants the borders open Kraut. Boom, game over for National.

   • Bert to say what you said in that comment must have hurt. In the past you have stuck up, for Jacinda and Labour as I have for National but in many ways they have both lost their way in what matters. Who ever is in power most people want to feel there is a future for them and their family . A good health system a chance to get ahead through work or education safe from criminals and a fair public service . To get these goals we need firm leadership and a team that cares more for us the public than idiology and power trips.

     • I believe at the end of the day you and I both know Trevor, National is a basket case. It is a basket case for two reasons. Firstly they are offering no alternative policy. They are internally destructive and this goes down to leadership. Peter Goodfellow should have resigned over multiple indiscretions of ministers, donation scandals and the Michelle Boag issue. The fact Collins continues to have a divided caucus and rules with an iron fist tells us she is not inclusive, a trait which is a must for a leader people will follow, thus this being Arderns strength.
       Until the rust that is Goodfellow is removed( well past his use by date) National will be consigned to opposition.

10. Well said Sabine

11. Yes! We need a referendum before the 2023 election held for; the 3 Waters & Infrastructure confiscation proposal, the Health reform(s), the he Puapua paper/policy-doctrine and the Oceans & Coastal Waters environmental proposal too!

    No later than 6 months before the election!

12. How about a debate about the ruptured Auckland fuel pipeline and how that was caused. And perhaps a debate about the “Cup of tea on the way to the airport” with David Wong Tun and the unnamed Chinese border official. And possibly a debate about Collins’ many many many mentions in Nicky Hager’s ‘Dirty Politics’…….

13. We dont need any referendums. Greedy Kiws dont want to spend money and nothing will be passed and nothing gets done – like any Tory Natz government. John Keys government ran a Rock Star economy by property speculation, immigration and cutting back on Public Services. We had the Panama papers, Dirty Politics, cup of tea with hone banks, a sign of a corrupt government. Who can remember Collins destroying Benson-Pope and his family by calling him a a pervert in parliament – despicable.
    Natz are loosing their demographics – old boomers (like me) are dying away.
    Aotearoans are lucky- LUCK Winstone didnt put the Torys in power in 2017.

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