Yay – Greens get to criminalise Christians – but who are we arresting?


Look, we all want to criminalise Christians, and it’s wonderful that the Greens and Labour are teaming up to do that…

Conversion therapy banned by early next year, Government reveals

The Government has revealed its plans to ban conversion therapy by early 2022 “at the latest”.

The legislation is almost certain to pass because it has the support of Labour, Greens and National.

But the Green Party is claiming today’s announcement by the Government as a win, as the rainbow spokeswoman Elizabeth Kerekere said the timeline was due to the pressure of a 150,000-strong petition, calling for urgency in banning the harmful practice.

Minister of Justice Kris Faafoi on Monday said the Government planned to bring legislation to Parliament by the middle of the year, which would see conversion therapy outlawed by the end of this year, or by February 2022.

…as far as I am concerned, anyone who believes in a magical flying invisible spell casting Wizard for their moral and ethical compass and uses that magical flying invisible spell casting Wizard to force a sexual orientation on another human being is fucking insane and incredibly damaging.

You can’t pray the gay ghosts away and anyone suggesting otherwise is a demented clown.

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b-u-t, what exactly are we criminalising here and are we honestly saying Gay Conversion Therapy is the biggest issue confronting us when 1 in 5 children live in poverty, over 22 000 are on social housing waiting lists and entire generations have been priced out of home ownership in a low income environment while speculators laugh all the way to the banks?

This is what we are opening legislative time on? This is the biggest challenge confronting the Gay community?

Our own Ministry of Health questioned banning gay conversion therapy and that needs to be acknowledged and understood more because they claim criminalising this would be more detrimental.

I don’t think anyone should be able to charge money for Gay Conversion Therapy because surely it breaches Consumer rights and fair trade practices (but then again so would Tarot card readings) and I don’t think anyone under the age of 18 should be able to consent to these things.


Are we saying an adult who chooses to pray the Gay away is not allowed to?

Now again, I think that person needs to seek actual counselling and real therapy to come to peace with who they are, but are we going to criminalise if people choose this hocus pocus?

Who will we be arresting here? The religious quack selling this nonsense or the person who chooses to seek it out?


I think Gay Conversion Therapy is crazy and harmful and stupid, but I think there are an enormous amount of things that are crazy, harmful and stupid that we don’t criminalise.

What I would hate to see is some religious nutter actively attempting to breach the law and becoming a martyr for this stupid cause.

Let’s at least agree on this, if you want to arrest anyone, let it be the person selling this bullshit Gay Conversion service, please don’t in a moment of woke overkill criminalise the confused people seeking it.

Banning Gay Conversion Therapy feels like Matariki as a public holiday and the environmental emergency, virtue signals that are empty gestures which do bugger all when compared to the magnitude of transformative change required on far larger issues.

At best this is tinkering while the house burns, at worst it’s an attack on religious people for being stupid.


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  1. Has NZ banned circumcision and female genital mutilation (removal of the clitoris] or other bizarre and brutal religious practices yet?

    It’s good to know that we no longer send unmarried mothers to institutions where they were worked as slaves and their babies starved or abused to death by the hundred, as happened right under the nose of the [Catholic] Irish government for many decades until fairly recently. I think it had something to do with how much ‘God loves us’.

    • Maybe so, Truth, maybe so. But that doesn’t stop the god-squadders from opposing the termination of unwanted pregnancies, and from trying to force unwanted infants out into a world which doesn’t want them, and which may abuse them, or batter them, or neglect them, or kill them – all of which wretched options the god brigade have no compunction about inflicting upon innocent little babies, because they don’t really care at all.

      If, a nation-wide situation exists with widespread conversion therapy being forced upon children, then yet again, it may be time to look at what is happening in schools.

      Prepubertal children being taught about gender identification, and gender choices, and gender options, may well become a bit confused. My adolescent crush on the captain of the netball team could have qualified me for some sort of therapy – but it passed, as things do.

      Our children are not performing well in science and maths, and even Latin can become a life-long interest, but somewhere along the way New Zealand has lost the ability to teach the solid core useful subjects which can enhance pupils’ lives and futures, and which the community actually needs. I’d be interested to know how education policy is formulated, and prioritised, and why. Jumping on American bandwagons isn’t good enough.

    • Afewknowthetruth: “Has NZ banned circumcision and female genital mutilation (removal of the clitoris] or other bizarre and brutal religious practices yet?”

      Female circumcision (with updated legislation passed last year) has been banned here since 1996. But – bizarrely – male circumcision remains legal.

      “It’s good to know that we no longer send unmarried mothers to institutions where they were worked as slaves and their babies starved or abused to death by the hundred….”

      Not in NZ. That to which you refer was in Ireland. It began in the 18th century, with an institution founded by Protestants. Later institutions were run by the Catholic church, specifically by orders of nuns.

      In NZ, unmarried mothers went to institutions to have their babies; there was large-scale adoption of such babies. I knew some women involved. Practices were often harsh (babies taken from the mother, sometimes just after birth or very close to it) and adopted out. The introduction of the DPB pretty much put an end to the adoption racket in this country.

        • Nitrium: “There is a pretty good NZ movie covering this topic: “Piece of My Heart”.”

          Yup. I agree and also highly recommend. Wasn’t Annie Whittle in it as well?

  2. Yep, the bigger issue is the power of politicians to interfere with, or to ban any medical procedures, or behaviour- changing practices. Who invented brain-washing anyway ? Russia? China ? The Jesuits?

    Everything about gay conversion therapy is unacceptable, odious, and sometimes very damaging.

    This doesn’t change the fact that there may still be persons who genuinely seek such therapy, and whether they should be entitled to, is a moot point.

    I’d quite like to see politicians unite to make child poverty unlawful, and homelessness, and shoelessness, but I guess there’s nothing scintillating in that for gender-identity obsessives shoring up their own righteous rejection of the conventional statues quo’s which they seem to blame every single time that they trip over their own unlaced shoes.

    Where are the facts and figures concerning forced gay conversion therapy? New Zealand in the 21stC facts and figures ?

    • Snow White: “Who invented brain-washing anyway ? Russia? China ? The Jesuits?”

      Think the Jesuits had the first crack at it, owing to their privileged position within the Catholic Church. “Give me the child until he is seven, and I will give you the man”. Or words to that effect.

      Then the Mickey-Drips, of course: they’ve been at it for millennia. And in my lifetime, Old Blighty and Uncle Sam have done a Job on the rest of us, courtesy their msm propaganda mouthpieces. The rise of the internet allowed many of us to see through it all.

      China and Russia? Nope.

      “Everything about gay conversion therapy is unacceptable, odious, and sometimes very damaging.

      This doesn’t change the fact that there may still be persons who genuinely seek such therapy….”

      Indeed. Is it really anybody else’s business if they do? It’s a religious practice, and NZ seems to be selective in which religious practices it legislates against: female circumcision is illegal, whereas that for males isn’t. I cannot see the logic of that.

      Aside from my sneaking suspicion that this is just another attempt by well-meaning busybodies to protect people from themselves, surely the government has many urgent issues which it ought to be prioritising. This isn’t one of them. The government ought to keep its nose out of religious matters.

      I’d have more respect for the current lot if they substantively raised benefit levels, as they were urged to do some years ago by their own working group. It’s never children’s fault, yet they bear the brunt of callously low benefits, and low incomes generally.

  3. As a lesbian, who has long supported campaigns for lesbian and gay rights, and as a leftie who is extremely concerned about current issues like wealth and income inequalities, poverty, housing affordability, etc – I agree, banning conversion therapy is not the most pressing concern these days.

    Is the ‘gay conversion therapy really that widespread in NZ these days?

    It seems to me that the GP Ban Conversion Therapy petition was intentionally misleading. It is most likely a Trojan horse to slip affirmative approach to ‘gender identity’ into law. But most people see their petition as being about ‘gay conversion therapy’. The petition did not define ‘gay’, ‘conversion therapy’ or ‘gender identity.’ And the GP did not respond to requests to do so.

    Most people understand gay as being ‘same-sex attracted’, but genderism defines it as ‘same gender attracted’ – that means any heterosexual man who self IDs as a woman, can claim to be a lesbian – and any one who questions this is labelled a transphobe.

    Many of us are now concerned about the affirmative approach to gender identity. This approach means, that if a child or teenager says they are the opposite sex, it is not to be questioned. If they ask for puberty blockers, this is not to be questioned by therapists or parents.

    But many young people, especially young women, have thought they want to medically, and possibly surgically transition to become a man. No one questioned it, they transitioned – young females took testosterone, maybe had a double mastectomy. Their voices change, they grew body hair and the hair on their heads thinned – this is irreversible, even after stopping taking testosterone. A few go for surgery to create a pseudo penis using flesh from one of their limbs. (a phalloplasty).

    But then by the time they are in their mid-20s, they regret this decision, and detransition. They say transitioning didn’t fix their problems, and they wish they had been offered counselling that explored their problems more deeply. But, for some people, such counselling constitutes ‘gender identity conversion therapy’.

    Many detrans females say they are lesbian, and had internalised homophoboia – thought being a man was preferable to being a same-sex attracted female – aka ‘transing the gay away’.

    There are an increasing number of transsexuals opposing genderism, and especially opposing transing children and teenagers.

    Scott Newgent is a US transman, who was initially a lesbian mother, who gave birth to 3 children. He transitioned at 41 years old, and experienced a very damaging failed phallosplasty. He has since looked closely at how US Big pharma is driving genderism, and is campaigning against transing children.

    He recently had an article published in Newsweek.

    Debbie Hayton is a UK male-to-female (medically and surgically transitioned) transsexual who says she remains male – has a prostate gland and fathered children before transitioning. She is very critical of genderism. https://debbiehayton.com/

    Keira Bell is a lesbian, who transitioned as a teenager – took testosterone and had a double mastectomy. She successfully sued the Tavistock in the UK, because they did not fully inform her of how experimental transtioning is, and they merely affirmed her as trans, without exploring her mental health problems more deeply.

    The NZ Green Party is not allowing a full debate about these issues, but are coat tailing on people’s understanding of gay conversion therapy, to slip in affirmative approaches to ‘gender identity’.

    Meanwhile, increasing numbers of Kiwis are homeless, and struggling to get the basics in life. This is a major crisis.

    • I think you almost had it. Firstly yes I totally agree The Greens are truly well-meaning. But I agree with yall that conversion therapy is not the most pressing issue. What I believe is its a way of unscrupulous politicians taking advantage of The Greens naivety just to ignore the wishes and please of 80% of New Zealanders.

      Fundamentally we are in conflict. We have to be under total control Stalin is pleased, we have to wear these cloaths, say these things. We don’t have to have a society that ignores 80% of the population. That is Rogernomics.

    • +1 Karolyn_IS

      Sad that those who fought for lesbian rights , now have men who decide they are woman be able to take this position without question (go to woman’s prisons, birth certificates, etc). It’s kinda the ultimate check mate by men. I’m not against transgender but do feel it is open to abuse and no matter what gender and sexuality you are, there are always abusers out there.

      Meanwhile the traditional views of woman’s rights which used to be equal pay in the workforce as a big priority, seems to be a distant memory as something the woman’s movement never obtained and actually got distracted from in the quest for ‘chest feeding’ and abortion pronouns for men becoming woman, taking priority amongst government officials. Another win for men!

      Government and woke are banking that it is easier to get the gay community and woman’s rights groups on board with headlines like Gay Conversion hate laws, than have true equality between men, woman and those in between, just like it’s easier to solve period poverty, than real poverty.

      • Thanks, SaveNZ. Yep. Check mate indeed.

        Actually, though, well funded, top-down genderism, and the smorgasbord of law changes they are implementing internationally are splitting the Rainbow Alliance and feminists. So far, the biggest losers are lesbians, especially young lesbians who are encouraged to date men who ID as lesbians. A benefit of being a female growing old, is that there’s a tendency for a lot of predatory males to go after, and pester younger women.

        Consequently, internationally, there are increasing numbers of lesbians, gays and bisexual people joining and following LGB groups, based on acknowledgement of biology. they define gays and lesbians as same-sex, not same gender, attracted. There are also some trans people support them and reject genderism – some feel there is a backlash coming to the house-of-cards that’s genderism, that will impact negatively on transgender people.



        And there’s a whole new grass roots wave of feminism rising in opposition to genderism:



  4. Good post Martyn

    It’s a slippery slope to selectively banning religious services. Like you I’m more a fan of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Praise be to his noodle tentacles!) but I abhor vague laws that include terms that cannot easily be defined, you know, like the principles of the treaty… 😉

    • Andrew: “…but I abhor vague laws that include terms that cannot easily be defined, you know, like the principles of the treaty… ”

      Couldn’t agree more. I well remember Geoff Palmer trying – and failing – to explain them in parliament. Winston Peters was one who called him out on that issue. Now: where’s Winston when we all need him?

  5. Thank-you for the thoughtful comment Karolyn_IS. The petition was run undef a false premise, heavy on emotive manipulation and rather light on data or facts.

    The Woke-cult perception of a person’s “identity” as fixed and unchanging, and therefore all of society and indeed even their own body should be rearranged to accomodate a *feeling*.

    So according to them, your mind can never change and to do so is a horrible crime. But the body can and should be changed with experimental surgeries and untested irreversible hormone treatments that render the patient sterile and reliant on medicine for the rest of their life.

    • Yep. And the Rainbow Alliance reject people who transition medically and/or surgically, saying they were never trans – even though they believed the genderist line that medically and/or surgically transitioning will make their lives better and end all their problems. Whe people detransition, the Rainbow Alliance provides no support, and leaves them to struggle alone.

      However, detrans people are now internationally, too.


      But NZ Labour, and NZ Greens, only listen to people in LGBT+ organisations, which all push the genderist lines and are in denial about biological sex.

  6. Brilliant and funny Post @ MB.
    Them poor old God bothers huh?
    Speaking of God botherers or rather the lack of, have you seen this series on Netflix?
    ‘Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt’ Created by Tina Fey.
    Is about several young women convinced to live in a bunker to shelter from the Armageddon by a religious nutter . They’re eventually rescued by the cops and become known as The Mole Women.
    It’s dangerously funny in my opinion.Especially if one’s eating while watching. You know how it is when you laugh-snort peas and potatoes up into your nasal cavities? Or an Indian-hot curry?
    There’s something in the series to offend everyone and I figure that if all one does is to roll around in hysterical laughter all of the time then it’s an indicator that one’s pretty much grounded and sane. The kicker is that it makes dealing with tiresome, pious, God bothering fuckwits all the more difficult. Especially if their dull minded beliefs impact on people we love.
    Titus is fabulous btw.

    • A depressingly accurate observation of “Christianity” today, especially as practised by Conservative Evangelical Americans, who have hitched their wagons to Trump, nationalism, science denial, and militarism.

      This has been a problem for the faith going back to Constantine, when it became official doctrine of the Roman Empire. But Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, as the kingdom of God is not “of this world”. Satan tempted Jesus with power and wealth, but that is not what He was about. The kingdom of God is exemplified by loving one’s neighbour. Not all this culture war triumphalist bullshit.

  7. A silly, pointless distraction

    The CIA's playbook for disrupting socialist movements was to join and start fights constantly over minor differences to prevent them from working together to fight capitalism.If you spend time doing this for free you might want to call them up and see if you can get a paycheck.— Existential Comics (@existentialcoms) February 10, 2021

  8. Forgive me father for I have sinned.
    I smoked a joint and had some thoughts.
    About the church. Why do priests where funny dresses? And wave perfumes around? And have alter boys pour them chalets of wine? And get people to stick their tongues out at them and put a thin crusty thing on them in the name of the father, the son and the Holy spirit?
    Why do all the priests live in the same house and don’t live in a house with the nuns? And why do they worship a guy that got nailed….to a cross?
    Just some thoughts father. I don’t know how they came to me, perhaps it was this darn devil’s lettuce.

    • Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:
      “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?”

      After killing God in the 19th century, humanity embraced scientific rationality in the utopian 20th Century and all our problems were solved.

      Oh wait.

  9. Squirrel!

    As a person of faith have a real problem with your line of attack Martin, its the stupid divisive shit I hear all the time coming from liberals and its tiresome.

    So just in case you missed it, Christians’ are waking up to the fact many so called churches are doing some very bizarre things in their name.

    And stupid attacks on Christians’ just because some use our name is not really helpful nor constructive.

    Is conversion therapy wrong? The fact so many suicides’ come from it would be a sure sign for the majority of Christians’ that it is obviously wrong. We take suicide seriously, and we take poverty seriously, so in the second half of your piece I’m in total agreement.

    But division for divisions sake, dull and boring. Your an atheists, cool, I’ve no problem with that – but please stop sounding like the broken record Ricky Gervais drivels’ out

  10. if it saves one child from the fear of god or the fear of self expression it’s worth it – the same as corporal abuse imo – body and the mind.

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