Oh come on Seymour! Safe spaces around abortion clinics ARE NOT a freedom of speech issue!

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ACT: Sexism on campus is fine, principled drug and abortion policy is not

I am bloody angry…

Voting mix-up sees abortion safe-zones axed and MPs ‘gutted’

Justice Minister Andrew Little is disappointed that proposed “safe zones” around abortion clinics got axed late last night in a voting mix-up.

But Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, who supported the proposal to establish 150m protest-free areas around clinics, has brushed off the error as “the outcome of democracy”.

An amendment to scrap the safe zones, in the name of Act leader David Seymour, was split into two parts during the committee stage of the Abortion Legislation Bill late last night.

…I don’t want to scream at the tired and incompetent MPs who got tricked into this – well I do, but what’s the fucking point right?

Bloody clowns!

This is on David Seymour and it’s total bullshit!

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His argument is that it is free speech he is defending – that’s just sophistry!

He’s being a clever dick and tripped up tired MPs for shits and giggles and has in fact ended up truly damaging people.

Allowing safety corridors so that women seeking a medical procedure are able to walk to that venue without having religious fuckwits in their face screaming abortion is murder IS NOT a free speech issue and Seymour knows that!

These regions fanatics can still spread their spite, but across the road from the venue. Their free speech is NOT being eroded here, they are simply not being allowed to intimidate and damage people seeking a legal medical procedure on their way to that venue!

It would be like allowing anti-vaxx nutters to stand outside vaccination stations screaming their quack science, sure they are allowed free speech, but they can’t be allowed that over and above peoples legal rights to access those venues without intimidation in the first place!

Just because you are on the opposite side of the road, doesn’t mean your free speech has been censored, that is a fallacious argument by Seymour. He isn’t arguing for free speech, he’s arguing for the right to intimidate!

He has behaved appallingly here and it is simply sick to play dickhead undergrad games on legislation as important as this.

David Seymour you disgraced yourself this week.

34 COMMENTS

  1. Two points:
    First, why do we still have special seperate clinics for abortions where the anti-abortionists can identify the women visiting for that purpose? Isn’t a special clinic a throwback to the 1950s? I think abortions should be provided in DHB hospitals.

    Second, if abortion clinics are granted safe spaces, why can’t the oil and gas industry or the arms industry conferences have safe spaces? Or businesses faced with a picket line?
    Or are safe spaces only for women, and people we like?

    • Ada “…why can’t the oil and gas industry or the arms industry conferences have safe spaces?”

      The examples which you cite, are massive money-making global industries which do in fact have ‘safe spaces’ provided by the NZ Police, out in force to protect conference participants, and to photograph the protestors.

      The police do not protect women seeking abortions from the opponents of abortion.

      Abortion seekers are always women, and are often women on their own. They do not generate the mega bucks which invariably-male industrial conference groups do – hence police protection. The money, Ada.

      Police participate in the unwanted babies scenario further along the track, dealing with the beatings, bashings, brain damage, and murders, meted out on these tragic little ones, whose tragic lives may simply not have come about had the mothers been able to terminate their pregnancies before life became viable.

      It is easy for sickos to bully and picket vulnerable women, but I am not aware of any anti-abortion protestors ever expressing any concern about what becomes of the unwanted children.

      The protestors’ sole concern, is forcing pregnant women to full term, and I daresay Freud – or Nathaniel Hawthorne – could have something to say about these grubby specimens of humanity.

      Parliament has made totally the wrong decision here by effectively endorsing cruel barbaric behaviour, and it needs to be revisited.

      Contrary to what you imply, abortions are provided in some DHB hospitals.

      You are also in error suggesting that special clinics are a throwback to the 50’s. Abortion was illegal in NZ in the 1950’s, with women often forced to seek often horrific alternatives.

      The only special separate ‘clinics’ I know of in the 50’s were for the mentally ill, TB, and ironically, mother and baby hospitals for women needing specialist post-natal care and assistance; even the school dental clinics are now gone.

      Nice of you to worry about the captains of industry though, Ada.

      • Abortion was illegal in NZ

        Had abortion been legal in my mother’s time, I may not have had this lifetime. And for all its hassles, including years in foster care, I am immensely thankful to have had it (and to still have it 🙂

        I could not have blamed my mother if she had made that choice. Her situation was almost unbearable.

        But I am very, very thankful that she had me, very thankful to be here, and thankful to live every day.

        • Kheala most of us are grateful that we are alive, well for most of the time anyway.
          I am saddened for the loss of a grand daughter who was miscarried through medical incompetence but life is not perfect.
          The world has too many people and reduction in numbers will happen through many different events including extension and continuation of existing wars, pandemics, starvation and environmental change.

          There is no way this planet can sustain 7 billion humans.

    • Did you just compare getting an abortion to supporting the oil industry….?

      Your comment is uninformed and ignorant. Please educate yourself.

      • Improve your reading comprehension. And don’t go seeking offence where none exists.

        My point that eluded you was that once the principle of a no-protest ‘safe-space’ is established in law, it can be used to push back protests against all sorts of activities.

  2. David Seymour you disgraced yourself this week.

    Well, I disagree. I’m not even sure how it happened, but after years of feeling some contempt towards him, that has suddenly changed. I never thought that could happen. Not with his views on climate change etc. But somehow, as far as I’m concerned he has earned his place in parliament. (Again, something I never thought I would feel or think.)

  3. The Gweens were asleep at the wheel again. Whatshername gets up in the house after the bill has been read and the vote called for and counted and says,”Whats happened? What can we do? Can we have another vote!” ffs they really need to not return to parliament again!

  4. Claims that anti-abortionists scream and yell abuse and throw rubber fetuses outside abortion clinics are simply smear campaigns.

    The people who quietly protest are mainly elderly Kiwis, who would rather take rat poison than shout abuse.

    If they were behaving badly, all the clinic staff have to do is call the Police – and it’s never happened.

    Here is what you don’t read in recent media reports on the Exclusion Zones.

    For the past three years, there have been three young adults outside Hastings Hospital on the day abortions are performed.

    They are silent, but hold up placards offering help and support.

    So far 39 babies have been confirmed saved after their mothers stopped to talk.

    They are confirmed saved because the mothers and whanau bring them along as beloved toddlers and show photos.

    Why don’t you check it out Bomber by contacting Kate Cormack at Voice for Life?

    Regards,

    Bernard Moran

    • Someone’s got convenient historical amnesia, Bernard. While New Zealand anti-abortionists don’t misbehave anywhere near as much as their overseas counterparts, your collective memory seems to be a little faulty. When it comes to anti-abortion protestors in Christchurch, for example, the Pro-Life Action Group there metamorphosed into the failed Operation Rescue Christchurch, and its activists were then responsible for a major schism within the anti-abortion movement when they took over Christchurch SPUC and turned it into a radical prohibitionist anti-abortion group, now known as Right to Life New Zealand. However, given the upsurge in militant anti-abortion protests in the United Kingdom after Northern Ireland was made to recognise abortion rights, one suspects that the more radical elements of the New Zealand anti-abortion movement will follow suit in the event of the passage of the Abortion Legislation Bill. Which is why safe zones are necessary, or will become so.

      • In fact Craig Young, Right to Life New Zealand, made an Official Information Act request act to Andrew Little in 2019 asking for details of copies of letters of complaint of harassment outside of abortion clinics – with the names and addresses of those complainants deleted.

        The Minister refused quoting privacy concerns, which we believed were unjustified given there would be no way to identify those complainants. We have laid a complaint with the Ombudsman who has advised we will hear his decision in due course.

        As far as we know there have never been any incidents involving members of Pro-Life groups involved in any ‘harassment’ outside abortion clinics, unless praying quietly outside of an abortion clinic and talking quietly to mothers, is considered harassment.

        Feel free to check with the Police Mr Young, who will confirm this fact. In fact as Bernard Moran has commented, those praying outside these abortion mills are probably the most peaceful people in New Zealand.

        Bernard has also commented that many babies have been saved because people were prepared to talk with mothers. I would imagine that those people whose lives are being saved by movements such as 40 Days for Life currently running in our major cities (thousands saved worldwide), would have a slight disagreement with you.

        Interesting isn’t it that Justice Minister Andrew Little, in charge of the Abortion Legislation bill, told Stuff recently in response to a question that he wasn’t aware of any increase in ads (on social media), from Voice for Life and that “Personally, I ignore communications from extremist groups.”

        Well Mr Little might like to reflect on making such a statement that Pro-life groups are extremists, in light of the fact that the number of people joining such groups and who believe that the unborn child is worthy of protection is growing rapidly. Simply look at the growing numbers attending the Pro-Life marches in Auckland, Wellington and at the end of March in Christchurch. Of even greater concern to him is that the Church, a sleeping giant on this issue, is coming awake with the leaders of churches representing hundreds of thousands if not a million New Zealanders recently sending very strongly worded letters about this dangerous bill to himself and to our Prime Minister.

        Last time I looked New Zealand had laws allowing peaceful protest. Unfortunately there would appear to be a determined push by Mr Little to introduce what he calls “Hate Speech” laws. I wonder for how much longer freedom of speech, religion and expression will be a features of our ‘democracy’.

        • I see Chris O’Brien doesn’t bother to deny that Right to Life New Zealand is a prohibitionist anti-abortion organisation that wants to reintroduce the draconian and prohibitionist Status of the Unborn Child Bill 1983, for which it was expelled from SPUC in 1999. Mr O’Brien also refers to ‘the church” as a ‘sleeping giant’ on abortion. Virtually all of the objections to the Abortion Legislation Act that I’ve seen have been from fringe fundamentalist sects, not mainline Protestant churches (apart from a tiny handful of misfit fundamentalist “Anglicans” who also opposed marriage equality). Conservative Christian sects can say what they like about abortion. The College of Midwives, New Zealand Nurses Organisation, New Zealand Association of Social Workers, New Zealand Medical Association and Royal College of General Practitioners all stated in their submissions that they supported liberalisation, decriminalisation and reform.
          Mr O’Brien may want to also reflect that total Christian religious observance has been plummeting steadily in this country for quite some time.

      • Well I was against protest zones when it affected my pet protest (off shore oil and gas exploration) and I see no reason why I should change my view. If things get out of hand cops can just issue people behaving unruly with move on orders.

    • … ” The people who quietly protest are mainly elderly Kiwis, who would rather take rat poison than shout abuse. If they were behaving badly, all the clinic staff have to do is call the Police – and it’s never happened ” …

      Brilliant.

      Lets hear far more from these pro life people instead of them being constantly cliched’ and demonized and written off as ‘ religious nutters’ .

      Frankly I’m tired of hearing / seeing that moronic and simplistic write off of other peoples valid beliefs and then watching the same dismissive advocates go in to bat for other trivial ’causes’. The pro lifers arguments backed by science are equally as valid as the pro abortionists arguments.

      Lets hear it from those who have the methods to promote and save life and offer solutions, – rather than the woke who seem fixated on simplistic population control ( murder ) and feminist’s ‘ rights’ – and more from those who see that lives have firmly been established in the womb irrevocably, … no different from you and me and who have EXACTLY the same human rights as others after birth.

  5. Oh hang on chum. I agree with the proposal but does this detract in any way from the true dubiousness of the potential “hate speech” laws and their chillingly vague wording? Taken from the UK and France who both have a piss poor track record on human rights? Just ask Julian Assange, a investigative journalist (a rare beast in my books) and Renaud Camus (an academic who had an opinion).

    I’d add are politicians really so inept that a minor party can derail them? Personally if that’s true then I’d say God help us all. PIn my view its more likely some had an issue with the proposal and voted accordingly. Maybe some of us don’t like that outcome (I don’t) but that is indeed democracy in action. If we want a different outcome then I’d suggest we need to be more discerning in our voting habits.

  6. Strange how he’s all about people having the right to end their own lives, but wants to empower pro-lifers, with the power to intimidate and bully others who have a decision that is just as hard and important.

    Jesus wept, why has the MSM not seen the hypocrisy of this cynical move?

  7. I agree with Martyns post and the Aussies are way ahead of us on this.

    Apart from not having the bullshit of a Woman having to pretend mental illness / harm to get the medical procedure ,,, they also ban the mainly god bothering fuckwits from harassing the women patients.

    “The Solicitor-General for Victoria submitted that the activities of protesters had previously created an environment of “conflict, fear and intimidation” outside abortion clinics, and that these activities were harmful to both patients and staff in a number of ways. .. In particular, it was said that existing laws did not adequately protect women and staff against the effects of these activities.”
    “the key point at issue with the safe zones was not the right to political speech and protest – rather, it was whether the protection of the dignity of the women and staff being targeted was consistent with the stated principles of the public health system.” http://werewolf.co.nz/2020/03/gordon-campbell-on-the-loss-of-abortion-safe-zones/

  8. ‘ Sophistry?

    Really?

    ‘ Religious fuckwits?’

    OK…

    ‘ But across the road from the venue ‘

    I getcha…

    ‘ But they can’t be allowed that over and above peoples legal rights ‘ …

    OK , OK …

    But many times I have written here about when I was doing a security course , – that included the same qualifications required of Police detectives , – of when I and many students and the ex Police tutor we had were viewing the Falun Gong members protesting,… I commented on that and my tutor said,” many will be in fear because of their family’s in China”…

    This was in the era when John Key of the Trashional party was in power,…

    And we watched as a motorcade of Chinese and NZ limo’s pulled up to a particular hotel on the corner of Symonds and K’ Road in Auckland,… as a phalanx of NZ Police marched towards a group of around 60- 80 Falun Gong members , then proceeded to stand behind each and every one of them in rank.

    The Falun Gong stood their ground , were silent , and simply held up placards… our NZ Police,… intimidating pro democracy people in favor of an official totalitarian states visit by its Prime Minister.

    Now.

    In no way can we compare the dynamics . EXCEPT ,… That in the eyes of the anti abortion lobby ,.. the same could be said about the murder of the unborn that amounts to enormous proportions. They view this as murder.

    Have a look at this :

    Abortion Statistics – Worldometerwww.worldometers.info › abortions

    Now , ..granted the issue the Falun Gong has is more to do with organ harvesting, summary executions , mass detainment’s and incarcerations in ‘re-education centers’ and slave labor of living children and adults and that the abortion of a fetus is that of the unborn and as such the ‘scientifically unproven’ state of what delineates a human being… dont you think you should tread more carefully on this issue?

    History might just prove you to be quite wrong.

    And the Falun Gong to have more in common with the anti abortionists.

    And heavens forbid… David Seymour aka Arnold Judas Rimmer of Red Dwarf fame , … to be right.

  9. Seymour just lost a heap of women voters.Probably kept a few but all the women I know dislike him even more. He’s not really an MP because people want him. He’s there only because of Key’s gerry/johnny mandering with Banks,Hide & Brash.

  10. The Victorians don’t allow protests outside Abortion clinics but you wouldn’t expect anything different from them as they are “woke progressives”.
    They obviously don’t appreciate Free Speech as much as us.
    It was a small victory but good on you David, you put a spoke in their wheel.
    GWEENS will have to take up “Dancing with they Stars” to produce some stamina for long debates in parliament.
    Give them a TWERK David.

  11. The Victorians don’t allow protests outside Abortion clinics but you wouldn’t expect anything different from them as they are “woke progressives”.
    They obviously don’t appreciate Free Speech as much as us.
    It was a small victory but good on you David, you put a spoke in their wheel.
    GWEENS will have to take up “Dancing with they Stars” to produce some stamina for long debates in parliament.
    Give them a TWERK David.

    • They can go protest in the town square, Parliament etc etc etc ,,, more people to spread their message too .

      Funny how Andrew wants to target and intimidate individual women at a low point in their lives ,,,,

      • Perhaps as an example of where ugly Andys belief sets align ,,,, is with Ben Shapiro ,,, of whom Andy is a fan boy,,,, and has used his ‘free speech’ to promote this right wing, climate change denying racist clown.

        Ben Shapiro supports Laws which mandate a 10 year prison sentence for Women who have an abortion.
        about 1 minute in
        https://youtu.be/krfJqg-WJYw

        Personally I suspect Andrew is a women hating creepy Incel.

      • @ reason – ” Funny how Andrew wants to target and intimidate individual women at a low point in their lives ,,,” Clearly Andrew finds it easier to target vulnerable women than to target the men responsible – few woman self-impregnate.

        Can you see Andrew campaigning or protesting against the males responsible, or is he just another a small-picture sort of person ?

        And is it not also perplexing when the right, like Ada, advocate protecting powerful men from environmentalists striving to ensure the survival of planet earth as a safe habitat for everybody – women, men and children – dependent upon it to continue to live?

        Ada: “…if abortion clinics are granted safe spaces, why can’t the oil and gas industry or the arms industry conferences have safe spaces?”

        It seems that some political persuasions advocate dumping upon women in often quite tragic predicaments, but when it comes to the industries responsible for helping
        to trash the whole world, then we should be protecting them from those concerned about a universal existential crisis.

        The sickening placards flourished at women seeking abortions signal the neanderthal mentality of stone-age bullies, and are doubtless a convenient distraction from the realities of climate change – hence the gutlessness of politicians who welcome any diversion from them or us facing up to the big issues.

        • Totally agree Snow White about males and their half of the responsibility ,,,

          And yet its been mainly Authoritarian men and often religious ones driving the harassment, or criminal law directed by historically male dominated Governments.

          ie Bill English and his Catholic values ,,,

          They are incapable of providing and ignore all the proven positive ways to lower the rate of unplanned or unwanted pregnancy s in society .

          Decent provision of education and access to proper jobs and careers for women ,,, and all our young,,,,is the PROVEN road to that.

          Andrew and his guru Ben Shapiro have no problem with stone age stuff ,,, 2 mins 40 secs and it gets going.

          https://youtu.be/2AgfNTZP9ck

        • Snow White, I think you need to get a grip dear. I only commented on the irony of the situation and haven’t expressed an opinion on abortion.

          In a free society you can’t pick & chose what & where people can protest, otherwise we’re on a very slippery slope. Any protesters must abide by the law and it is the job of the police to ensure that they do.

          So Semour’s position was a principled one.

    • No one is talking about removing anti-abortionists right to protest, just protecting women from harrassment and intimidation by establishing a protest-free radius. Otherwise, protests can still occur outside that perimeter. Clinic exclusion zones regulate speech, they do not prohibit it.

  12. Andrew. Got the grip thanks. But I’m not that interested in Seymour, my concern is for the predicament of the women – there but for the grace of God go I.

    Generally we don’t know what goes on in other people’s lives, and often it is not our business. And I more or less accept that some of the anti- abortion brigade may be well-meaning people. (The road to hell is paved with good intentions.)

    The fact remains that some of the individuals, and the groups, who seem to think that their personal objection to abortion entitles them to deny others the right to control their own reproductive processes, are the same ones who objected to Sue Bradford’s anti-smacking bill. They were vociferous in their opposition to the NZ govt passing legislation aimed at reducing the violence inflicted upon NZ children by adults.

    There’s a certain contradiction here, when they publicly harass and harangue women seeking abortions,
    then tell the govt to butt out, and that it is not their business what they do to their kids.

    They argued on points of law, and on defences already then available under criminal law concerning the degree of violence already legally permitted, that child discipline was parents/carers business, and not that of govt. To me, the whole argument was obscene, and a shocking reflection upon us as a so-called civilised society, that any violence towards children is tolerated, let alone regarded as acceptable.

    Dr Bradford actually received death threats for trying to get the message out about how children should be treated, and that is also a pretty poor reflection on the sort of people that NZ’ers are. That’s us.

    There are commentators who still whinge away about Sue Bradford, and the same ones are equally determined to broadcast their views on abortion, and to publicly inflict them upon women about whose personal circumstances they know zilch. It is barbaric – and often sanctimonious self-gratification – or self-justification. I know of one who really belted her kids.

    I, personally, am not too keen on spare-parts surgery, and I regard it as often not particularly cost-effective.
    That is something I keep to myself; others think differently, and there is no way I would stand opposite some private hospital brandishing a kidney in a bottle at some poor death-fearing bugger, and talk righteous words.

    Maybe stand on the other side of the road and meditate, like the Falun Gong do in Wgtn – but comfrey has overtaken my garden, and the rhubarb is crying out to be chutneyfied. Seymour, however is just hedging his bets – but Sue Bradford didn’t, did she ? As an ex-child, I salute her.

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