The John Minto and Dr David Cumin Israel Debate


This was the Israel debate from earlier this week.

John Minto vs Dr. David Cumin – Different Perspectives On Israel from Slipstream Media on Vimeo.

David focused on the history and legacy of anti-semitism and attempted to twist that into the actions of the BDS movement while John focused on defending the BDS movement from those accusations.

No rational person can ignore the horrific hatred Jews have had to endure over the centuries nor diminish the obscenity of the Holocaust BUT none of the historic hatred, nor the vile maliciousness of Nazi genocide excuses or justifies the terrible group punishment and brutal occupation of the Palestinian people, and that’s where the debate must always be.

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The Israeli’s are the ones with all the power in this cruel occupation, they decide which Palestinians live or die and their misplaced militancy and paranoid defensiveness, while understandable in the context of a history of abuse, doesn’t in any way shape or form justify what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

This debate was a celebration of free speech. It was angry, it was passionate and at times bitter, but we all had the benefit of actually hearing the arguments put forward. At a time when Massey University, Auckland University and the social media woke lynch mob are so hell bent on silencing debate and strangling off free speech, it was a reminder that we can still sit together and debate, because it is only when we talk this pain out that we can effect real change and avoid the violence that the lesser angels of our nature can drag us down to.

I wish to thank David and John for agreeing to debate and really hope that this is but the first of these types of dialogues, because if we strangle off free speech, the pain these issues generate only festers and turns and explodes.

Let us have the courage of our intellect and reason and talk these issues out rather than repress and deny them.


  1. Kia ora

    I was at this debate and was one of the first to arrive at 6.15pm who supports the struggle of the Palestinians, the place was 1/3 full of zionists, and by 7pm the largely zionist audience filled the lecture theatre. The place seated 140 and there were at least another 50 sitting around and behind the speakers. The air I have to say was one of hatred. I feel terribly sad that so many zionists cannot see that they have become the oppressors. I think most of the world knows and are appalled by the holocaust but for so many Jews to then have so much hatred for Palestinians to me is incomprehensible. And to ‘use’ the holocaust and say anyone who speaks out against the Israeli regime is an antisemite is absolutely wrong.

    Someone should be trying to get Cummin’s speech and take it apart step by step. I find it hard to believe that they don’t realise that innocent children are being killed perhaps it is a matter of not wanting to know.

    The other fascinating thing is their belief that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, despite Palestinians who live in Israel being prohibited from doing many things that Israeli Jews are able to do.

    • Well it was that moment when Minto reminded the audience that Isreali snipers have free rein to murder Palistianian Children, that Dr David the school boy needs to be brought back for another whooping.

      The audible reaction was one of outrage and the replies from the audience sounded like they where claims of fake news. This video showing an Israeli sniper murdering a Palestinian from 2016 is typical of the videos that will appear if you type Israel into the Google search engine.

      So using the crowd as any kind of measure does not correlate as all. Minto won the debate. No amount of polling the audience can change that because fan boys and girls will naturally move to protect their own self interest.

  2. The Zionist movement started in the 1940s when the Zionist terrorist’s murdered hundreds of innocent people so that the Zionist state of Israel could take control of the area…when one looks at what that state does today it is so like what the Nazi’s did. If Israeli citizens speak out they are punished, jailed or forced out…that is not democracy that is dictatorship in action. The present Israeli leader is due to be put on trial for corruption, that also represents a dictatorship in action. I strongly recommend that you watch
    Minto won the debate by a wide margin…well done.

  3. Your 2nd para, Martyn, sums it up succinctly. As so many of that great people, the Jews, recognise. A Crusader State. Sorry to say it’s just 2 options, no happy compromise. We certainly can take as many of them as the white South Africans with their unreflective right -wing politics.

    I can utterly understand the Israelis’ fight, just I’m for the original people and underdogs.

  4. John Minto was obviously the honest sincere man ,,,, He’s seeking justice and peace for those living in Israel …and it showed.

    To have a slur like ” final solution ” leveled at him showed the twisting of facts ,,,, and outright lies used by the ethno nationalist zionist apologist … that dr d Cullen presents as ….He used a lot of strawman arguments ,,, He seemed to misrepresent Nelson Mandela during one of them

    Mandela was against the Israel occupation and theft of The Golan Heights … “In a 1999 speech: “Israel should withdraw from all the areas which it won from the Arabs in 1967, and in particular Israel should withdraw completely from the Golan Heights, from south Lebanon and from the West Bank.”

    “The UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system. But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”

    The Zionist opposition …. against a secular state with equal rights and protections for all …Displays their racism and discrimination … in a way that 1000 words from doc dave could not cover up….

    Even though he’s a doctor ,,, he’s pushing ” The Great replacement ” sickness ,,,, as applied to the great wall building nuke bristling right wing Israel ethno nationalists.

    Its no secret Israel murders children, medics, reporters etc … by snipers …

    Or by bomb and drone …
    ” september 27 2008 11.25 in the morning , what I refer to as the most shameful day in jewish history ,,, the most shameful day in the history or the jewish people.,,,, ” Israel began carpet bombing gaza ,,, with 100 tonnes of bombs on the first day ,,, when the school kids were on their way too or from school ,,, 800 000 kids live in gaza …. The first day of a 21 day slaughter”

    42 mins 30 secs ,,,, but watch the whole video for true eduction.

    Finally to try and end on a positive note … although also tragic .

    Both Miko Peled and his Sister want peace and justice … despite he having lost his neice, his sisters innocent daughter ,,,,, to terrorism.

    And Doctor Abuelaishs had half his family killed by terrorism … but still wants peace and justice.

    Those who have lost the most want peace and justice. ….

    Racist wankers and blinkered Zionists with no skin in the game want to maintain an Ideology of injustice,,, that can only exist through force and endless violence.

    And huge segregation walls

    P.s most of Cullens apologist talking points and myths are rebuked in this documentary ,,,,

  5. John should have won the debate; he was arguing from an unassailable position after all. To a degree , especially as regards the more recent immigrants to Israel they are their choice to do so preselected from the world jewish population as being prepared to embrace the abhorrent policies of the present and recently past governments. So it’s not surprising that the vast majority of Israeli jewish voters keep such extremist governments in power. I doubt that the world population of jewish people approve, though perhaps the more humanitarian minded jews have dropped their religion over the years and no longer count themselves as Jewish. Going back a hundred years or so my family was probably among those.
    I do think that Israel is digging a terrible hole for itself. They are squandering world-wide sympathy like there was no tomorrow , and there may well be none , while they manufacture enemies among their neighbours by the million.
    Iran makes it clear that if a major war breaks out agains Iran that Israel will be gone by lunchtime so to speak.So I guess Israel will have to deploy her nukes at once. What a mess.
    If my guess as to the disposition of jews world wide is correct they need to persuade the Israeli government to change tack.
    D J S

    • I don’t know about that guesstimate. Jews are the best of us in understanding things clear, but overlooking your own self-interest is beyond even the best of us.

    • I could attempt to help out here…, but I must confess that I am skeptical of how well the attempt would turn out.

      Still, good on you for fearlessly making the suggestion.

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