South Right Whale vs South White Fail

By   /   July 8, 2018  /   28 Comments

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Of course far right polemicists have the right to speak in NZ – what they don’t have a right to is community funded space to speak in – but nothing is solved by banning this toxicity – if the left can’t argue the far right and win, we’ve lost, not them

It’s sweet that our Capital banned their fireworks for the South Right Whale in their harbour.

I hope we can get the Whale an emotional support peacock.

I’m also glad our Auckland Mayor smacked down two far right hate merchants from using Council property.

Of course far right polemicists have the right to speak in NZ – what they don’t have a right to is community funded space to speak in – but nothing is solved by banning this toxicity – if the left can’t argue the far right and win, we’ve lost, not them.

Progressives didn’t win anything here, they’ve gained a propaganda win and will be live streaming their poison to us. Sunlight solves this, not rabid screams of ‘no platforming’. They show up, we show up and we counter argue their infantile debates. Better we reveal their weakness now than when economic shockwaves makes desperate people more open to its message.

Oh and if you are a Right Winger who can’t tell the difference between a crypto-fascist and Jane Kelsey when debating who can or can’t use Council buildings to speak in – you are not championing free speech, you’re failing basic comparison skills.

 

 

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28 Comments

  1. cleangreen says:

    Bloody right there martyn,

    If you stop the voices of difference from speaking then we all have failed.

    They will be given more power to speak as martyrs.

    Our histroy is lotered tyrs who eventually got their power recognised so will these two Canadians.

    • Christine says:

      I completely agree, but part of the problem with Lauren Southern is that she doesn’t seem able to debate, or to even want to debate. Libertarians tend to be sociopaths and given to slogans with scant informed follow-up.

      No-one – I hope – likes hate-mongers, but just looking at New Zealand and the fact that so many mistook John Key for a good leader , shows that the great unwashed aren’t necessarily greatly discerning.

      Southern thrives on being a look-at-me martyr – let her be one – and stop all this polarising right wing/left wing nonsense when there are just and decent people right across the whole political spectrum.

      • Sam Sam says:

        Seriously if southern is that much of a threat to New Zealand’s democracy we’ve got way bigger problems.

  2. Nick Stone says:

    Very well said. Banning them gives the Hateful Right a cheap win, and makes the left look weak. These commercialised alt-right entrepreneurs can say nothing that a reasoned argument can’t win over. Part of the advantage (IMO) we have in this country is that we don’t have a big history of these types whipping up mass outbreaks of violence on the streets….we tend to tut tut disapprovingly, ring talkback, post on blogs and gather in our dozens in Aotea Square before marching down Queen Street telling everyone how really really really annoyed we are …
    Bring them here, let the people who SAY they will go to the event brave the cameras (and embarrass their Mothers who always thought they were actually such a nice boy) and then generally laugh at them. Or debate them. But yeah…laugh at them.

  3. Off white says:

    Far right. Yeah right. It should be plain to see, especially in this current political climate that fascism and left wing go hand in hand. Not surprised you’re anti Lauren Southern, the left are practically anti women these days. Since when did it become so controversial to speak out against female genital mutilation?

    • Harry says:

      Since the self-identified “left” embraced Islam – it’s OK when muslims do it.

      • Christine says:

        Nope. The WHO has been addressing this for over two decades
        and has identified it as very much a cultural and ethnic issue, not a religious issue, and certainly not confined to Islam. Like all cultural issues, it is best left in the hands of trained experts liasoning with the communities which it affects.

        It would appear that for some reason it is Southern’s devotees who are anti women, and criminally and violently so.

        Maramar Davidson MP, a senior NZ woman politician who disagreed with council venues being made available to Lauren Southern, has received death threats and threats of rape and violence against both herself, and her children.

        This is appalling and is now a police matter and rightly so.

        Without even stepping foot in NZ Southern has triggered extreme and horrific behaviour among her supporters and it is they who have shown themselves to be a threat to law and order.

        • Sam Sam says:

          Disagree that “experts” should be left to intelligent debate for intelligencers sack. “Experts” is what makes our current system so fragile. We learn together instead of taking intellectual shortcuts by banning things we don’t really know how to deal with.

          We deal with decent by debating or killing it with the law.

    • Christine says:

      Off White – is it really controversial to speak out against female genital mutilation ? OMG. Please elaborate.

      • Off white says:

        Yes sure, there are those ‘right wing, nazi, fascist, islamaphobes’, the ones the left is constantly shutting down for pointing out the hypocrisy of the left for supposedly championing feminism yet turning a blind eye to the thousands of young girls, throughout the UK, as an example, who have their genitals mutilated (clitoris removed). And you bitch and moan about patriarchy in western culture. OMG, you must have your head in the sand if you need me to elaborate.

        • Christine says:

          Off White you are being a bit of an idiot. Again.

          If you really think that throughout the Western world, and Asia, and the Middle East, and the horn of Africa, women and men are closing their eyes to genital mutilation then you are ignorant as well as idiotic.

          This is a huge issue for the girls and women whom it affects.

          They deserve our empathy, our respect, and our support.

          Their experience should not be trivialised to score cheap political shots – no-one else’s pain and suffering ever should be. It’s not ok.

          • Off white says:

            From you, I’ll take being called a bit of an idiot as a compliment. You asked me to elaborate and I did. If you think this topic is cheap political fodder you are wrong. I don’t hear the left talking about this, only the racist nazis. That is not ok.

    • Mjolnir says:

      Off-white, your spurious garbage is based on false premises, distortions, and just pure BS.

      Which is why I think Martyn’s comment doesn’t work;

      “They show up, we show up and we counter argue their infantile debates. Better we reveal their weakness now than when economic shockwaves makes desperate people more open to its message.”

      You can’t argue rationally with irrational crap like yours. Not when you spin lies to bolster your argument.

      The more I read crap like yours, the less enamoured I am with rightwing rednecks like you being given platforms. If theres any reason why far rightwingers are denied public forums, look in the mirror.

      • Off white says:

        whats the false premise? I wouldn’t be here if I wasn’t looking in the mirror. Easy isn’t it how quickly you find reason to silence those who disagree with you.

  4. Andrew says:

    One small correction Martyn: They weren’t community funded. This was a profit making venture for the council because they get a percentage of the gate.

    It’s a sad day when a mayor gets to choose who may speak in a public venue and who may not. It directly contravenes our human rights law of free speech. I expect there will be some fallout over this in due course.

    Just as you say, all it has done is given these people free publicity. Thousands of NZers will check them out on Facebook and YouTube.

    What they’ll find is that these people aren’t really “far right” at all. They’re just mildly conservative with a negative view of Islam (that is shared by a majority of Europeans and Americans these days).

    They present facts that are uncomfortable for many to confront, namely that the tenets of Islam are highly regressive and present a direct threat to Jews, Christians, Gays, Women and our freedom in general.

    • Mjolnir says:

      Andrew and Off-white, will you both endorse the right of an Islamist militant to come to NZ to use free speech to spread his vile ideology? If not, why not?

      • Andrew says:

        Mjolnir

        Let’s be clear what the legal definition of ‘Hate Speech’ actually is:

        It’s when someone is inciting violence or property damage against an individual or group of people.

        Outside of that I will defend the right of a Muslim to preach his gospel… right up until the points where he says something like ‘Death to the Jews’ or ‘Gays shall be stoned to death’, because that is real hate speech and should be shut down.

      • Off white says:

        Just like I wouldn’t endorse the grand wizard of the KKK to come to NZ to speak, neither would I endorse an Islamist militant. There’s no doubt the Islamist militant would be calling for the death or enslavement of westerners. Now how does that compare to Lauren Southern?

        • Louis says:

          Decades ago the Left were the champions of free speech which ultimately made the world a better place. Its sad that there seems to be such an onslaught against speech we don’t like. Only through respectful debate and an honest exchange of ideas can we make progress. Try and understand your debating opponent and then address their argument. Don’t attribute evil motives to your opponents. This will earn respect from both supporters and opponents and lead to a better outcome for all.

        • There’s no doubt the Islamist militant would be calling for the death or enslavement of westerners. Now how does that compare to Lauren Southern?

          Southern and her mate are more cunning than that. They use hate-speech just short of calling for ” death or enslavement”.

          But when they rail against certain classes of people; dehumanise them; their followers will take the hints and we’ve seen what consequences there are from the various right-wing nutjobs who have killed many innocent people.

          Like that Norgewian far right nutjob who shot seventyseven unarmed young people in 2011.

          Southern’s cunning strategy is not to be explicit. She and her cronies just drop hints. Their followers do the rest.

          Remember Trump’s little hint;

          “If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks,” Mr. Trump said, as the crowd began to boo. He quickly added: “Although the Second Amendment people — maybe there is, I don’t know.”

          ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/10/us/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton.html

          Now what would that suggest, I wonder..?!

          • WILD KATIPO says:

            Maybe it suggests another 5 year duration Tuesday morning sign off by Obama for a few more drone strikes to indiscriminately kill some more non – combatant civilians in Iraq?

            Who knows ?

  5. WILD KATIPO says:

    After watching the person in question in England I’m sure she would be torn to bits by a fair amount of outraged commentators here.

    As one person said,… ‘Southern thrives on being a look-at-me martyr’,… and she seemed pathetic.

    However I wouldn’t grant her permission to speak in our civic places. They would be sullied. Let her take her place on a wooden soapbox on some street corner .With no loudspeaker and only her signs.

    Then we would see the courage of her convictions as she struggled to rant above the noise of the traffic.

    You don’t let cancer survive so why let cancerous messages and propaganda survive. We’ve just put up with 9 years of far right wing shit under Key and gotten rid of that odious lot.

    Why be a masochist?

  6. esoteric pineapples says:

    By chance, I ended up watching videos by both of these people when they came up on my Youtube feed. I knew nothing about previously. I found Lauren Southern’ videos on the reverse racism that is occurring against white South Africans, especially poor whites and farmers, very disturbing and far from hypobolic, given that the South African government has indicated it now plans to take farms of the white South Africans and give them to black South Africans. Apart from being a recipe for disaster, this is as much an injustice as similar things taking place in other parts of the world. The sad fact is that the progressive movement, of which I would fit into by definition, refuses to acknowledge what is going on, because of that country’s past history of aparthied. However, both empathy and racism are colour blind and the same judgement should be applied to all cases. In this area at least, Southern should be seen not as a far right hate merchant, but a journalist doing a necessary job. By the progressive movement not speaking up, it enhances the following of Southern by far right extremists

    • Sam Sam says:

      I question your use of the term “far right,” of course if you are far right you should probably be locked away if not shot on the spot. Atleast that’s how it was explained to me by my grandfathers who had intimate knowledge of the far right. Perhaps far right means something different today. Perhaps young people do have the courage to face up to oppressors. Perhaps.

      • Off white says:

        Allow me –
        If you believe in border control you’re a nazi.
        If you question why in certain countries women are stoned to death, the feminists call you an islamaphobe.
        I you believe in one law and equality you’re a racist.
        If you believe boys tend to like cars and girls tend to like dolls you’re a bigot.
        If you believe in a smaller government and a bit of personal responsibility you’re a far right nut job.
        If you think it’s odd that men can now compete as women in sports you’re a misogynist.

        • I you believe in one law and equality you’re a racist.

          Yeah, it’s criminal how British settlers didn’t respect property rights and illegally confiscated land from Maori. The “one law” at the time even supported land theft, war crimes, illegal detention, etc.

          Well, at least the Maori seats will ensure that Maori are never again dispossessed of their land and resources by others.

          The rest of your litany of whinging is the wah-wahing of a white middle aged man whose days of privilege is drawing to an end.

    • Off white says:

      +1000 Esoteric Pineapples.