NOTE TO READERS: This post draws extensively from the historical circumstances that led to the appointment of Adolf Hitler as German Chancellor on 30 January 1933. Inevitably, these references will provoke someone to invoke “Godwin’s Law” – i.e. the Internet convention that the first person to equate contemporary events with the horrors of Nazi Germany in a political debate, loses the debate. I have long considered those who cry “Godwin” to be not only foolish but dangerous. Anyone who attempts to prevent people learning from one of the most terrible periods of human history is, objectively speaking, a fascist. Genuine progressives do not obey “Godwin’s Law”.
HAD YOU BEEN LIVING in Germany on 27 January 1933 the chances are good that you would have considered Adolf Hitler a busted flush. Two months earlier, in the last nationwide elections, his Nazi Party had suffered a small but highly significant loss of support. The newspapers were filled with confident predictions that the National Socialists had peaked. The trade unions even dared to entertain a small measure of optimism about the future. It was known that the present Chancellor, General Kurt von Schleicher, was drawing up a comprehensive plan to put Germany back to work. Things were looking up.
The following day, however, General Schleicher was forced to tender his resignation. Unending backstairs intrigue had finally succeeded in persuading the German President, Paul von Hindenburg, to get rid of the inveterate military schemer once and for all and replace him with Adolf Hitler. The right-wing aristocrats, soldiers, politicians and businessmen advising Hindenburg were firmly convinced that Hitler could be “controlled”. The Nazi Party and its charismatic leader would be the pawns of German reaction – not its master.
Negotiations between Hitler and the President’s advisers continued for a further 24 hours. The following day, 30 January 1933, Hindenburg announced that he was appointing Adolf Hitler Chancellor of Germany.
Nothing would ever be the same again.
Today, Donald Trump will be sworn in as the 45th President of the United States. The route by which he has arrived at the White House is very different from that which led Hitler to the Chancellery, but when executive power is finally vested in Trump’s person, the American Republic, like the hapless Weimar Republic before it, will be changed utterly.
Trump will be able to change America in ways no other president has ever dared contemplate because his election represents not a vote of collective confidence in the American system, but an act of collective repudiation. Not by all Americans. Not even by a majority of Americans. But by enough of those Americans who believe themselves to be “real” Americans. These Americans, like the “true” Germans of 1933, have become convinced that they can no longer rely upon the American political system to protect their interests – and so, that system must be changed, changed utterly.
The forms of American democracy will remain – at least for a while – but its substance will be steadily whittled away. With all three branches of the US government: the Executive, the Legislature, and (very soon) the Judiciary under Republican Party control, the “checks and balances” in which America’s founding fathers placed so much faith will be rendered inoperative. Exactly what is meant by “We the People of the United States” will become the subject of drastic revision.
The progressive expansion of what it means to be a citizen of the United States: the historical journey that began in the depths of the American Civil War with the Emancipation Proclamation, and which ended with President Barack Obama bathing the White House in all the colours of the rainbow, will be halted. Worse – it will be thrown into reverse.
In Nazi Germany the process began with The Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honour and The Reich Citizenship Law – both passed at a special session of the Reichstag convened during the 1935 Nazi Party Rally in the city of Nuremburg. It was through these so-called “Nuremburg Laws” that German Jews found themselves definitively excluded from what it meant to be German.
That is how it begins: with exclusions; deportations; preventive detentions; the construction of walls.
But it is not how it ends.
My thoughts precisely. Indeed, I counter the destructive naivete of the so-called “Godwin’s Law” with that of George Santayana;
Nowhere is that more important when humans indulge their capacity for political and religious extremism. Fascism is not exempt from Santayana’s wisdom.
I’m glad both you and Chris defined what most irritated me about people – usually those on the far right – who always loved to quote Godwins law as some sort of ‘pseudo authoritative ‘ discussion ender to close people down…
Especially when the similarities that were being pointed out were starting to get all too dangerously accurate for them to refute…
Indeed, Katipo. You’ve assessed it very nicely.
When Godwin first made his observations, I suspect he believed that referencing Hitler/WW2 in arguments were an attempt to close down/deflect debate on a given issue. That has ironically now morphed into “Godwin’s Law” being used to attempt to close down/deflect an issue. specially when the person employing it has nothing further to add to the debate at hand.
It reminds me of the argument from judgemental right-wingers/conservatives who, when faced with the problems of child poverty resort first to the “plenty of jobs out there” cliche. When pointed out that said jobs pay bugger all, the next cliche is “the poor shouldn’t have kids then (As if raising a family is now the privilege of the propertied Middle Class and One Percenters?)
It’s all a kind of mental “short hand” for people who can’t think it through, so parrot the easiest cliche to push their narrow world-view (usually learned from Rant-Back Radio and the likes).
Chris has illustrated very well how history seems to be uncannily repeating. Anyone who defaults to “Godwin’s Law” isn’t being clever – they’re simply not keeping up.
The truly scary thing about a nascent “Fourth Reich” in Amerika is that, this time, there is no nation on Earth capable of resisting a fascist USA. It will be up to the American people to resist.
“Chris has illustrated very well how history seems to be uncannily repeating. Anyone who defaults to “Godwin’s Law” isn’t being clever – they’re simply not keeping up.”
OR…..as all fascists believe, they just see themselves as being somehow ‘exceptional’.
Doesn’t matter whether they’re Amurrikun No1 Nationers, Zionist “Chosen People”, or even (dare I say it) those who identify as LGBTI suggesting gay guys can’t be mysogenist (and there are a shitload of them).
Funny old world eh? …. that is till you realise some fascist cnut has the codes, and a number of other fascist cnuts are setting NZ foreign policy, devising ways of dealing with child abuse, the homeless, immigration, labour laws, etc. etc. etc.
So has Key’s resignation any connection with the above.
Remember Key is the Chairperson of “The Democratic Union ‘ mainly dominated by the Republican Party .?
You’ll see many globalist leaders get turfed out over the next 10 years
10 years? Will it take that long!
Theresa May (UK) Merkal (Germany) ect ect, these two woman have about a year left of there term. There’s a high likeliness this will usher in far right fascists, theses a chance of a fascist resurgences in France via Marine Le Pen. So I’d be cautious about what replaces European globalism because it’s looking like fascist are eyeing opertunitues.
The fundamental floor in democracy remains: power corrupts
Also confirms my thesis that the university system is a complete disaster. I see lectures and professors around social media sharing radical views with out substantiative or procedural knowledge.
I maybe making something out of nothing, but when I see them fanning the flames of anger I call bullshit and troll them.
I was booted out of The Standard by quoting Hitler during the 2014 Election by Iprent and always will feel wronged by that bad experience from that one eyed Iprent.
I will always exercise my right to speak against Nazis as my distant relatives from my great Grandmother’s side from Bavaria were all part of the (Neuman) family, and were all exterminated during the second world war holocaust, and all her ancestral records of the family were destroyed by the Nazis.
She came here in 1842 so was well separated from the family but it was a shock when my son was resident working in southern Germany for several years and failed to find any records of her family then.
I don’t hold any connection today for the Neuman family, but we should at least have some closure here.
“I was booted out of The Standard by quoting Hitler during the 2014 Election by Iprent and always will feel wronged by that bad experience from that one eyed Iprent.”
Don’t feel wronged CG. It’s their fucking site…but just see the hypocrisy that goes with it sometimes. (They’re exceptional people after all.) Their egos generally precede them – whether it’s a dainty little gig on Molesworth St with Wallace, or an “I’m in with the IN crowd”, or (as is probably with your case), a willingness to engage in a conversation that gets thwarted by an ‘exceptiona body’ , or one of the trolls from the roit that come on duty. They’re a really really ‘broad church’.
THe biggest fuckup with the site is the moderation where the author has moderation under his/her wing, as opposed to someone a little more independent.
Never mind though – it’s ‘their’ site, bought and paid for by L&L with various help eh?
Besides which – you’re an old cunt that keeps harping on about railways and other pet things, so you can’t possibly have the intelligence of the world’s most sukitandc programmer and his folloers that regularly fawn all over him.
No doubt he’ll see this, and react – since it’s a challenge to his programmatic skulls (or maybe not now I’ve said).
TS …. you’re not banned are you CG?
Not sure what it is CG, whether one of the L’s has an ego the size of their waste, or whether they just have their kaccheras in a twist, but they are exceptional (in a Trump kind of way – they just pull it off a little better).
BTW …. keep up with the rail examples.
I love Lynne and Lyn (still not sure which is which – I just know one recently created a good impression in NE India recently
Welcome back to the best political space in New Zealand. Where people come to share there concerns, good or bad. Somethings that are just straight out lies seem to be punished. At least that’s my experience.
I remember The avatar known as Blake had some radical views of Naom Chomsky, now he’s not that radical. IMO at the time, I would have ban hammered. Glad I didn’t.
Free speech is what makes New Zealand great
I don’t think you could really go that far , Chris… Trump does appeal to the original ‘ rugged individual ‘ ideal of many of the American people. That ideal born out of its frontier past…
It couldn’t go on with the globalists like it had been … eg with Clinton,… the egg was bound to crack sooner or later as it did in England. Such things as the Pilger / Assange interview pretty much laid it all out bare for all to see …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9xbokQO4M0 Short version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbT3_9dJY4 Full version.
I don’t think its wrong for Trump and his supporters to desire large American company’s cease using slave labour in offshore third world country’s then making a killing by selling product back to the USA – costing American jobs in the process. Should working Americans continue to sacrifice their futures for the small number of globalist Washington elites who are the only ones accruing vast wealth because of it?
Is protectionism / patriotism necessarily a bad thing , … or is it just that its been so long now since we’ve actually seen it ,… that the concept actually scares us?
And just who are those most scared?… those globalist free marketeers by whom the very concept of ‘ nationalism’ and ‘ sovereignty ‘ is a dirty word?
Trump seems more concerned about China’s manipulation of currency than he is about a non existent Chinese military ‘ expansionist ‘ policy… he spoke most forcefully about the ‘ economic’ path of China than any direct military issues …
I also don’t see more friendly terms with Russia as a bad thing. Or would we really want to return to the cold war?
As for a wall… while that may unfortunately drag legitimate migrants into the issues,… the main thrust seems to be against illegal immigration. Does anyone have any idea how vicious some of these armed gangs are that form in America – particularly by displaced illegal immigrants? And can we honestly say in far away New Zealand we have a right to comment on what to the American public are very , very real issues of serious criminality ?
( I say displaced because former USA Foreign policy’s actually created the conditions for much of that illegal immigration to occur in the first place – however they are not unique in this : many west European nations have experienced similar and there is the same sort of backlash occurring there as well .)
Is the actual cost of policing this in more traditional ways and its obvious failure to do so ,… the reason why a more radical solution such as a physical wall / fence was enabled to come about in the first place?
Trumps a business man. And hes surrounded himself with hard men and women. OK. He doesn’t tow the line. Even with Taiwan and China and Americas ‘ one China ‘ policy.
OK,… so here’s something that does bother me a little about Trump. And if its good enough to not cite Godwins law ( and rightfully so in my opinion regarding this post ) … its also good enough not to start citing the Bible as being a ‘ magic book’ as some would do here.
Trump wants to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
Politically , it would seem antagonistic at first glance, – but it could also be a preemptive move to prevent even more bloodshed…
We know the Dome of the Rock sits on the exact same location of the old Great Temple of the Jews. We also know there is a strong movement among currently in Israel to rebuild the Great Temple…
The homebase of the U. N is in the USA ,… Trump wants a more ‘protectionist’ America – some would say isolationist – yet in seeking to support Israel even moreso… that just may necessitate some sort of new deal regards Palestine,.. and indeed the Muslim world…
One where the Jewish Great Temple is rebuilt, yet somehow takes into consideration the Muslims claim to the Mound also … we may just find in bringing the USA embassy to Jerusalem that it becomes the forerunner of any future peace deal whereby the U.N sets up office and oversees construction and security…
A computer system , a flag , an emblem perhaps?… along with an official human presence?
New American Standard Bible :
15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.”
(* holy place – Holy of holies / inner sanctuary in the Great Temple . )
Perhaps because of Trump , or perhaps a following president building on Trumps middle east foreign policy and tendencies could have something more to do with the above scenario than we would ever care to think…
Just a thought…
“Prevent more bloodshed”?
I doubt if many Muslims will see it that way.
It will be provocative and may well play into the hands of ISIS, Al Queda, and many other groups who see continuing Western imperialism in the Middle East.
If Trump truly wants peace in the Middle East, I think we both agree that the grievances of the Palestinian people must be addressed.
And then the West should just Get the F**k out of the Middle East and cease it’s meddling. (That includes selling billions of dollars of lethal weaponry to Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and all the rest.)
Until then, we’ll simply get more of the same and the 21st Century will look pretty much like the 20th Century.
I think your right , there , Frank… regarding playing into the hands of ISIS, Al Queda etc… but this could also be a way to force the issue..
That old Hegelian dialectic at work I’m referring to :
Thesis – to create the reaction , antithesis ( to draw the issue to a head by inciting ISIS etc … ) … and then finally … the solution ,… a controlled and agreed upon path overseen by the U. N … and a resurgent Turkey ( and Erdogan ) which are intent to host a 10 nation Caliphate…
I’ll admit it may be a long bow and isn’t exactly what Chris is writing about… but it is a policy of Trump to support Israel to the hilt , so does make me wonder…
Aha! The Shanghai Solution…
The International Settlement for Shanghai (1853-1943)
That ended well didn’t it..?
Exactly , – but I think any political intrigue around the middle east will end even worse than the example you gave… and that’s why it does create apprehension when I see Trump supporting Israel so unequivocally.
Totally Godwin-ed this one, Chris.
L0L !
Don’t get your knickers in a twist over it , PANTIES …
=)
Well, Mr” Panties of Doom” (how old are you??), congratulations, it seems you’ve proven Frank’s point.
I’m trying to see what you’ve added to this conversation….. ummmm… er….. hmmm… Nope. Nothing.
EDIT : Al Queda
Corrected ‘Al-Qaeda’.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
Thank you.
In his valedictory speech Eisenhower warned of the rise of fascism in America, but actually he was commenting on the state of affairs when he became president, rather than what was to come, Truman having taken America a little further down the road to fascism than Roosevelt had done before him.
It suits certain people to perpetuate and promulgate the myth that America has been a democracy since the American Revolution, or the even sillier notion that America has been a democracy in recent times, when all the evidence points to that not being the case, except perhaps for very brief periods, such as when Andrew Jackson was in power in the 1830s. .
Trump will do what every other president has done since the 1890s, which is to promote the interests of banks and big business ahead of the interests of the common people, and do what every president since the Second World War has done, which is attempt to ensure that America gets far more than its fair share of global resources via military force and dollar hegemony.
Despite all the hoopla, nothing has changed with the inauguration of Trump, other than the world being in a slightly worse state than it was yesterday.
We’ll probably see plenty of self-defeating policies promoted and plenty of ‘fiddling while Rome burns’ with Republican-dominated houses and a Republican president…..until America finally destroys itself, taking everyone else down with it except perhaps the Russians and a few indigenous tribes not caught up in the madness.
I hope Bernie Sanders makes another run for the Presidency. At this point, I’m thinking “LUKE SKYWALKER – THE LAST HOPE”.
I find all this nationalism scary.
For example, all those “100% Pure New Zealand” ads that we see.
Isn’t this evidence of a far right movement in NZ?
Should I report this to the police?
Yep, lay a complaint with the police, thanks.
It’s more like 40% pure Waikato River. 30% pure Northland rain forest. 100% pure cow piss. I fear referring cops to rape of land will be handled like any other rape case.
Fuck the roast busters
Yes, Andy, report it to the Police. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=584912
NZ is actually a very racist and anti-semitic country so calling Trump the next Hitler is slightly hilarious
No, Andy. Just you and your ilk.
As for “anti-semite”, you’re indulging in your using bullshit to smear any criticism of Zionism as anti-semitism. That’s like being called “anti-American just because one is critical of US imperialism. It’s a crap argument whichever way you look at it.
Try harder.
Yes I can try harder.
For a start, referring to “me and my ilk” as racist is amusing when you don’t even know me.
NZ only admitted a very small number of Jews into NZ after WW2. NZ praised the Nazi annexation of Austria as opening up business opportunities.
Of course, NZ is racist. We are “bi-cultural”, thus denying the rights and existence of other cultures, especially Chinese and the early NZ ones during the gold rush.
NZ sponsored resolution 2334 which denies Jews the right to live in Judea and Samaria. whilst Arabs make up 20% of Israel’s population.
NZ’s position has been praised by Hamas, an Islamic Supremacist terrorist group whose mission is to wipe Israel off the map and exterminate the Jews. Hitler himself was a friend of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, whose Jew-hating views were much in common
NZ social media is chock full of anti-semitic and racist bile.
This is how the rest of the world see us too.
So if you are in glass houses, it is best not to throw stones.
“For a start, referring to “me and my ilk” as racist is amusing when you don’t even know me.”
No, I don’t know you, Andy. I only know of you by what you write. And your declared views are racist.
Also ignorant of Treaty issues when you assert “We are “bi-cultural”, thus denying the rights and existence of other cultures, especially Chinese and the early NZ ones during the gold rush”. That is a covert attack on the Treaty, Maori, and issues relating to.
Your ignorance and racism is why no one takes you seriously. Because you conflate issues that can’t be compared and your one-eyed views on Israel=good, Palestinians=bad, is juvenile claptrap.
That’ll do for starters.
“And your declared views are racist.”
If you believe that to be true, then perhaps you could give an example
Oh I forgot, leftists only need to scream “raaycit” and everyone gets it.
No evidence is needed
What a pathetic excuse for a human being you are, exemplified by the Nom de Plume you use
You are racist, Andy. We’ve read plenty of your postings on this forum to know that. That’s all the evidence we need.
Suck it up.
As for my nom de plume, indulging in ad hominem won’t help you much. It just signifies you’ve reached rock-bottom with any lack of coherent thoughts.
Saly’s Husband – plus one!
Andy, we’ve all read your comments on TDB. It’s a bit late in the day to be coming across as all innocent. Your racist and misogynistic comments stand out and don’t show you in a very good light.
Was Hitler Democratically elected?
https://www.quora.com/Was-Adolf-Hitler-democratically-elected
Aparently, it turns out that the Nazis (and their leader)were elected with a bigger mandate than Trump. (Trump lost the popular vote to Clinton by one million votes, and he lost the popular vote by ten million votes if you add the votes that went to independents.)
The point of this comparison;
For those condemning and attacking the protesters against Trump, because “he was democratically elected” Would these same people condemn the German people if they had protested at Hitler’s innaugeration as German Chancelor in 1933, because he was democraticlly elected?
Yes we need to learn the lessons of history that is why we are protesting today.
Was Hitler democratically elected?
https://www.quora.com/Was-Adolf-Hitler-democratically-elected
“The answer is Yes”
Hitler did not wait long following his election to strip away civil liberties….
“Republican Lawmakers in Five States Propose Bills to Criminalize Peaceful Protest”
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/19/republican-lawmakers-in-five-states-propose-bills-to-criminalize-peaceful-protest/</b
"Republicans propose bill making it legal for police to kill protesters"
http://usuncut.com/news/republicans-kill-protesters/
Anyone who regards Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin or Marine Le Pen as reincarnations of Adolph Hitler I will call “godwinists” And I believe I am quite capable of spotting historical parallels. It’s OK to learn from history, but each situation that occurs is unique in itself.
So don’t use “Godwins’ BS Law”, MikeSH. Analyse each “unique situation” and leave Godwin’s gross generalisation out of it.
The War President
War on the Poor, is tied to plans for more international military clashes and rivalries.
The first two acts of President Trump has seen him to sign papers for a massive increase in military spending and rearmaments, and to abolish Obamacare. The big increase in military spending and war preperation, is tied to cuts in social spending.
While I believe that you can take this these comparisons too far. There are historic parallels.
On the international scene the Trump administration has been making diplomatic overtures to the Russian Federation ruled by ex KGB agent and Russian revanchist, Vladimir Putin.
While to many this raproachment with America’s traditional international military and political rival, may seem unusual, it is not unprecented in international affairs.
http://history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/nonaggression.htm
At the same time that Trump has been talking up peace with Russia he has been making beligerent threats against China and North Korea. To be able to carry out these threats of military action against either China or North Korea. (or both). Trump needs to sideline the Russians.
To get a free hand in the Pacific and Asia in exchange Trump will (secretly) agree to not interfere in Putin’s adventurism in the Ukraine. And (openly) side with Russia in putting down the Syrian revolution. This new agreement over new spheres of influence between Russian and the US could create rifts between NATO and the US. Already Trump has told NATO that they are on their own in facing up to Russia.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2016/07/21/trump-to-nato-youre-on-your-own-n2195666
No doubt this new raproachment with Russia and agreement for a joint opperations to prop up the regime of Basha Assad in Syria, alongside Trump’s stated support for the use of torture, will see the resummation of CIA flights of ‘extraordinary rendition’ to Syria, into Assad’s torture chambers.
http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/donald-trump-era-begins-with-obamacare-rollback-and-missile-defence-orders/ar-AAm5XGm?li=BBv6TfA&ocid=spartanntp
Well Chris, it’s nice to be able to agree with you for once. Some of your recent postings here have been so neo-liberal it’s hard to tell which side of the cone you put your ice cream.
I find it interesting to note that as the dust, smoke, and fake news die down, the core issue is always that of class struggle.
Some things never change…
‘….. the new president also signed into law a new national day of patriotism and signalled plans to build a new missile defence system to protect against perceived threats from Iran and North Korea.
The Trump White House stripped the official website of all mention of Obama’s key policy agendas, including climate change and LGBT rights along with the civil rights history section.
The various subsections of the White House website were replaced with just six; energy, foreign policy, jobs and growth, military, law enforcement and trade deals.’
http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/donald-trump-era-begins-with-obamacare-rollback-and-missile-defence-orders/ar-AAm5XGm?li=BBv6TfA&ocid=spartandhp
In other words more squandering of resources by the military industrial complex, more planetary destruction, and more self-destruction of America, as expected.
I don’t think that Chris Trotter is too far wrong in repudiating those who invoke Godwin’s Law, to prevent people pointing out the obvious comparisons that need to be pointed out.
Support for torturing suspects to extract confessions and/or force information out of them is a hall mark of fascist and totalitarian regimes.
Candidate, and now President, Donald Trump has publicly stated his support for CIA torture “water boarding” and “worse”.
“I’d bring back ‘a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding”
Donald Trump
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/donald-trump-
waterboarding-republican-debate-torture
Donald Trump has also expressed his plan to join with Putin in propping up the fascist style regime of Basha Assad, in particular supporting the genocidal air campaign being waged against the rebels by the regime and Russia, that has resulted in the bulk of the 400 thousand deaths and 13 million internally and externally displaced refugees.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/561361/donald-trump-allience-vladimir-putin-president-assad-isis
From these two facts, (supporting Assad and supporting torture) I think that we can reasonably conclude that the resumption of US flights of ‘Extraordinary Rendition’ to Syria will be resumed. Previously Syria was the number one destination for such CIA flights.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/05/extraordinary-rendition-axis-of-evil-iran-syria-cia_n_2621401.html
As is publicly known, and well documented, the regime of Basha Assad, much like the Nazis did, carry out torture on an industrial scale, and would not hesitate in helping the CIA outsource some of Donald Trump’s torture business to Syrian torture chambers.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/16/syria-stories-behind-photos-killed-detainees
A friend in the U.S. posted an article today about five separate states with Republican law makers wanting to wind back the right to peaceful protest.
Just remember M.A.G.A. can also stand for Make America Grim Again.
I know we are not altogether better, but we have a chance at changing that this year. America just had their chance and this is what they got.
“But it is not how it ends.” Yes, quite. One way or the other as there are some possibly critical differences: Hitler was a strategic thinker and invaded Poland in 1939 knowing that he had the military capability to start a war using what we now call conventional weapons…
You’ve over-egged it as usual Chris
One small detail: It has been people supporting the left who have been the Brown Shirts in this election.
Almost without exception the violence has come from the Left…
…and so hey, let’s not forget that the fascists were National Socialists eh?
😉
*facepalm* Oh, FFS, Andrew! Get your freaking history and definitions correct! “National Socialism” has as much to do with left-wing socialism as meerkats have with the feline family.
Jeezus wept.
Correct, especially if one considers the factions of the Nazi party that took the “Socialist” in “National Socialist” more seriously, such as the Strasserites who were purged very early during the Nazi’s assumption of power.
Andy, you DO realize that just slapping a label (like “socialist”) on something doesn’t make it so.
The former East German communist government referred to East Germany as the Democratic Republic of Germany.
Do you maintain it really was democratic just because they labelled themselves as such?
What about North Korea? It’s official name is Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. How democratic do you think it is?
You’re either deliberately trolling, or are a bit thick.
Andy K, no, the “National Socialists” were not “socialist” at all. They acquired and mis-used the name, something you’d know if you acquainted yourself with real history and not the garbage you pick up from far-right websites.
Silly little man that you are.
And did Allah too?…
Seriously though ,… Andrews long bow was quite funny .
However… he does have a point though a slightly misguided one… It was those from the so-called ‘ Left’…. making all the whoopy…
I mean the ‘ so – called Left’,… mind you… I would say that as was proven about certain company’s employed by the Dems to disrupt Trump rally’s ,… whereby those company’s CEO’s were caught out by a reporter going incognito and videoing their statements on camera…
I mean of course the far neo liberal right wing masquerading as the ‘so- called Left’ – that same far right wing element that has surreptitiously embedded , ingratiated and integrated itself into the traditional ‘ Left’ … which also includes H.Clinton and her hawks.
These have nothing at all to do with the Left barring the label of being so. They have simply captured certain issues of the Left and assimilated them into useful tools for the far right wing neo liberal political cause .
It is in part why people rejected those who claimed they were ‘ Left ‘ and voted Trump instead. I would suggest that the true ‘ Left’ in America would of course of been Bernie Sanders – another reason why the Dems were punished.
Sanders,… would have been the candidate to ideally have become President.
If he had been enabled to have done so… we would not be sitting around debating the fragmentation of traditional concepts of the political spectrum – it would have been cut and dried, honest and out in the open, and I dare say – a far better world for it.
Unfortunately that did not happen.
And in a way – perhaps all for the good , – for at least it will now cause those who like to consider themselves ‘Left’ to start analyzing just what it really means to be ‘ Left’.
And instead of just simply accepting ugly compromises with neo con hawks and even bald faced lies about how neo liberal economic policy’s are good for all people , for example – just so that they can then lazily announce that their politics are ‘ Left’ , – and only because they support this person or that party – and then go off in the meantime to try and assuage their own consciences that they really believe in their own B.S and that of their candidate…
I cant help thinking that can only be a good thing for the future.
It just might start making people a little more honest about what they REALLY support and just WHY they do so.
If waddles and quacks, it’s a duck.
Left wing protesters:
>Damaging private property
>Beating bystanders in the street because they’re wearing the wrong hat
> Attacking particular racial profiles
>Using violence to try and undermine a democratic process
>Breaking up meetings because they don’t like honest and open debate
>Inserting their people into opposition meetings to start fights and then to blame it on others
These were all Hitler’s tactics so it’s clear those from the Left are today’s Fascists.
The fact that you’re not denouncing them, makes me wonder if you come from the same mold.
Unlike in 1930’s Germany Americans have stood up to these evil forces and voted peacefully to elect their preferred candidate.
Now you’re just making up any ole shit, Andrew/Andy.
ANDREW… the facts are that those Clinton supporters who went to those extremes had nothing to do with left politics.
Clinton , and her backers are neo liberal globalists,…and as such, … are in fact members of the far right. And who have ingratiated themselves into having the public’s perception of being ‘ left’ by strategically adopting aspects of left ideology – aspects that do not threaten their real agendas … but ask yourself this …
Has Clinton – or any of those who back her adopted Keynesian economics?
You know the answer – of course not.
There really is no true ‘ left ‘ or ‘ right’ .
They are nothing more than the hollow shells of what looks like the ‘ left ‘ ,… when they are in fact , more in league with practitioners of Hegelian Dialectics and thus New World Order advocates. Left and Right are merely illusions.
You really want to see the flow chart of history?… Ill give it to you anyways…
MYSTERY RELIGIONS
Babylon, Far eastern , Greek ,Egyptian etc
KABALAH
Jewish Mysticism based on Egyptian mystery religion
GNOSTICISM
Subversion of the early christian church with Greek Pantheistic religions / mystery religions
KNIGHTS TEMPLAR
Disbanded because of worship of Baphomet
ROSICRUCIAN
Amalgamated with remnants of the Knights Templars
MASONIC ORDER
Amalgamated with Rosicrucian’s
ILLUMINATI
Illuminati assimilate and absorb Freemasonry at the Masonic Congress of Wilhelmsbad
MAYER AMSCHEL ROTHCHILD
Illuminati ( 5 sons , travel to various country’s in Europe) takes over Bank of England by selling stocks during battle of Waterloo causing a panic sell- later buys back all stock and effectively now owns Bank of England
And from here we have the origins of the one world govt and their globalist ambitions. Every major war since the French revolution has been influenced by the Illuminati – more often than not by financing both sides.
Communism originated from the Illuminati , as did the destruction of the European monarchy’s. And Hegelian Dialectics has been used by successive govts right up til recent times to create a problem ( red flag operations ) , to encourage a backlash , then offer a solution … all the while knowing beforehand the outcome.
This is why we had such things as the ‘ war on terror’- under a completely bogus pretext – then we have the increased loss of civil liberty’s with the excuse of it being done for issues of ‘ national security ‘… when the real motives were increased control over and the ability to introduce greater surveillance of their own populations…
And that happened under the Bush family ( Right ) … Clinton ( Left ) was no better with her support of ISIS through the Clinton Foundation…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9xbokQO4M0
They are all globalists , under the guise of being either ‘Right ‘ or ‘ Left ‘ and have everything to do with George Bush Seniors ‘ New World Order he constantly mentioned.
And its no secret the Skull and Bones are an Illuminati organisation originally founded by a Freemason and that characters like Prescott Bush , George H W Bush Senior and George W Bush all were Skull and Bones members.
The Bank of International Settlements, Trilateral Commission , BilderBergers , World Bank , IMF to name a few are ALL run by and traced back to a hierarchical order of globalists.
And until you understand this ,… your simplistic labeling and pointing fingers at the ‘left ‘ or even the ‘ right’ … only demonstrates how woefully ignorant you and so many more are of who’s really pulling all our strings.
Wise up , dude.
They’re not liberals – They’re just assholes who don’t respect anyone, whether it be the owners of the property they vandalize, or the people whose protest they hijack.
This is an important point – Anarchists aren’t rioting because Hillary didn’t win or Bernie got fucked by the DNC; they are rioting because they are deluded enough to believe that people will join them, and not the socialist rioters on the other side of the street, who they hate even more than Republicans.
The Nazis were as Socialist as the DPRK is democratic, or Brian Tamaki is Christian – That is to say, not a bloody smidgeon. Anyone can slap a label on themselves and prance about like a wanker, but it doesn’t make it true. Closing your argument like that might be okay in the 3rd form debating club, but you’re an adult talking to other adults here. You’re gonna have to do better than that.
I wish to emphasise the ‘ can’t keep your cake and eat it too ‘ scenario. That there was is , was and shall continue to be ‘collective repudiation ‘ of deep state politics, has to be a logical human condition. I buy into this. Globalisation which has been evolving over centuries , metamorphic and in current times malevolent and interminable cannot be held back any more than the last tide, the next tide or a tsunami tide. It’s steel can be blunted however. Collective repudiation and protest are just two examples.
The Protest Vote might stifle what would have been a continuation of more Deep State ‘ same old same old ‘under Hillary Clinton’ just as here in New Zealand the same WILL prevail in November 2017.
I consider that innuendo implying Trump is a facist is very unthougtful. Entertainment lies ahead for me certainly as we see what DT will say or do next. We might have a clown in the avenue but you will not pop a ping pong ball in his mouth in this international circus of 2017. China might try whilst Putin doesn’t need to. I consider the synonyms of Facist such as; Authoritarian, Totalitarian,Dictatorial, Despotic, Undemocratic, Illiberal and then I think, Trump ? Naah not Trump .
China? Yeah! North Korea Yep! Russia Naah and Yeah! ISIL ? SURE!!!!!
Obama was thoughtful, dignified and non divisive yet despite my Hail to this Chief he has no more kept his promises than Trump will. Congress cobbled Obama effectively over his eight years and then of late Obama was deceitful in trying to rush through the TPPA , which I marched against as did other contributors to this blog. Trump has sorted the TPPA , and for this at the onset he has to be applauded. NZ has much to thank him for just this.
The Republican Party will temper Trump and keep him on a short lease to which Lincoln would roll in his grave if the thinking forum of his Party did otherwise.
Trump has uttered some positive sentiments that appeal to me, but he has not heeded the ‘ 3 Cs ‘, Clarity, Capability and Credibility. He certainly will not adhere to the ‘ 3 Ps ‘, the Planet, the People and Profit ( in that order )
I wish to emphasise the ‘ can’t keep your cake and eat it too ‘ scenario. That there was is , was and shall continue to be ‘collective repudiation ‘ of deep state politics, has to be a logical human condition. I buy into this. Globalisation which has been evolving over centuries , metamorphic and in current times malevolent and interminable cannot be held back any more than the last tide, the next tide or a tsunami tide. It’s steel can be blunted however and ‘ Collective repudiation ‘ and protest are just two examples.
The Protest Vote might stifle what would have been a continuation of more Deep State ‘ same old same old ‘under Hillary Clinton’ just as the ‘ NZNC Party ‘ will prove here in November 2017, with a new PM whom I hold in the highest esteem.
I consider that innuendo implying Trump is a facist is very unthougtful. Entertainment, humour and mirth on a daily basis lies ahead for me certainly as we see what DT will say or do next as the clown in the ‘ Avenue ‘. You will not , however pop a ping pong ball in his mouth in this international circus of 2017. China might try whilst Putin doesn’t need to and North Korea dare not. I consider the synonyms of Facist such as; Authoritarian, Totalitarian,Dictatorial, Despotic, Undemocratic, Illiberal and then I think, Trump ? Naah not Trump .
China? Yeah! North Korea Yep! Russia Naah ?? ISIL ? SURE!!!!!
Obama was thoughtful, dignified and non divisive yet despite my Hail to this Chief he has no more kept his promises than Trump will unless he knows something we don’t. Congress cobbled Obama effectively over his eight years and then of late Obama was deceitful in trying to rush through the TPPA , to the approbation of the Democrats and to which which I marched against as did other contributors to this blog in February 2016. Trump has sorted the TPPA , and for this at the onset he has to be applauded. NZ has much to thank him for just this.
The Republican Party will temper Trump and keep him on a short lease to which Lincoln would roll in his grave if the thinking forum of his Party did otherwise.
Trump has uttered some positive sentiments that appeal to me, but he has not heeded the rules of the ‘ 3 Cs ‘, Clarity, Capability and Credibility. This may prove a self imposed obstacle for him and the USA because if he fails the first time with his Credibility he will be on a down hill path trodden so many times before by most countries, but not all , and their leaders. He may need to listen closely to General Mattis.
He certainly prophesises ignorance, like Key , Smith and English, of the ‘ 3 Ps ‘ the Planet, the People and Profit ( in that order ) but he could well be tempered on this one.
Time will tell. Let him surprise us . Give him some room . Things could have been worse. As I have stated before’ ” [sic] ” Just Wait . Take nothing for granted .”
The value of the Godwin’s Law meme is that it discourages us from lazily accusing anyone we disagree with of being “like the Nazis”, thus diluting the impact of those making careful and proportionate comparison between contemporary political rhetoric and policy and those of the Nazis. For all the nastiness of the John Key regime, it was just as lazy and inaccurate to call it “fascist” or “nazi” as it was to claim the Clark regime resembled the Soviet Union (eg calling Wellington “Helengrad”). Key’s crimes against the people and environment of Aotearoa were of a different sort, as were Clark’s (I have a photo of her from the ComPost, meeting with three Microsoft henchpersons, hardly the actions of a Soviet-era communist). It is essential we understand such differences.
In the case of Trump, I think comparisons with Hitler are off the mark. Yes, there are some superficial parallels, particularly the “make [insert country here] great again” rhetoric. But I think the left is in danger of falling for Trump’s propaganda image of himself if we think such rhetoric will actually translate into policy. Like Obama before him, Trump will say whatever he needs to say to win a majority, then carry on with whatever a US President is obliged to do regardless of partisan politics. Trump’s rhetoric says more about the rising opposition to corporate globalization among the US working class than it does about what he will actually do in office, and the left would do well to get off the internet and help organise that opposition take our world back from the corporate hiveminds, rather than making lazy comparisons from the comfort of our keyboards.
The attack on women’s rights will begin as Trump winds back funding for Family Planning and abortion rights are curtailed.
Next will come muslims, mexicans, etc.
Fascists can’t operate without scapegoats. Just look at Hitler and his slaughter of 6 millions Jews.
Priss. Yes. Let’s look at that shall we. But AFTER you have read ‘Tell the Truth and shame the Devil’ by Gerard Menuhin. Son of Yehudi.
You can download online and you sure need to.
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