So these 40 people who are under 24 hour physical and electronic surveillance – what legal rights do these people have? Are the Government sure of the information that justifies this surveillance? We know from NZs own legal history with Ahmed Zaoui and domestic miscarriages of justice that our police and intelligence agencies can be abusive with their vast powers. Combine this with new mass surveillance abilities and we have all the ingredients for corruption.
The intelligence agencies in NZ have been spending money on opinion manipulation and have seeded stories in baby boomer media like The Listener to calm middle NZ about their new 5 Eye capabilities.
So we have a PM who is prepared to tell NZers there is a threat amongst us at a time when he needs to scare the local population to justify more powers. How many exactly? 40 or 49? How fast has this number jumped? When did the surveillance start? Have these cases been reviewed? What is happening with the surveillance footage? Do we destroy the original without copying it?
We can’t just hand over more and more unchecked power to a Government who have no problem using the state spy agency to falsely smear the Leader of the Opposition months before an election.
24 hour surveillance of people with a fig leaf judicial framework is what Police States do.
Oh come off it. 40 people are being watched, and we are in a police state? That’s almost nothing, do you think they are watching them for no reason in the age of ISIS? I don’t think Key should have divulged this information, but it seems like a damn if you do, damned if you don’t situation. If he hadn’t told us we would be angry he kept it a secret.
Healthy states have a functioning intelligence agency, we are nowhere near a police state. Please go to China and find out what a real one is.
Or are we moving towards China? I fear so. On the positive side, I find your optimism refreshing.
Perhaps it seems like optimism in comparison to the extremely pessimistic tone of this blog.
Negative. Healthy states have zero mention of any spy ops, I repeate, ZERO mention.
Useless waste of space gets mentioned for attempting to spy
My great grandfather use to say he never needed papers to do anything or go anywhere. My grandmother being a New Zealand citizen was caught up in the dawn raids of the 70’s. My people where accused of terrorism.
Stuff what China are doing. New Zealand is enough of a police state as it is. Yet despite what Wellington says, crime states are going up.
Your healthy state ideals are nothing more than fiat plastering over huge cracks in the economy
Shall we get rid of the police too? Intelligence agencies are vital to combating organised crime and terrorism, and a health state DOES have a competent agency.
John, the former Soviet Union had a vast internal police militia, and intelligence network of spies and informants.
Funny thing about that system. Organised crime was probably next to non-existent. Terrorism: nil. But really, would you want to live in such a society?
I think you’ll find that we can have sound, effective policing without turning New Zealand into some godzone-version of an Orwellian “Airstrip Two”.
Yes, that’s the point, I said a healthy state. We are only watching 40 people, hence no-where near a police state.
“Only 40 people”…
Hmmmm, what about “only 100 people”…?
1,000?
Feel free to name a number at which you are no longer comfortable, at which point you think we are near a police state.
And would that number be coloured by which party is in power?
I think you know what I’m suggesting, John.
If there were 100,000 people that wanted to harm this country, I would want every one of them monitored very closely.
The Soviet Union probably isn’t a very good example of a healthy state. New Zealand is the best example I can think of.
Of course not, Jacob. But if we go down your patch, we might as well be like any number of authoritarian regimes. There’s an old maxim that those who are willing to surrender liberty in return for security, deserve neither. My parents escaped from a country where state surveillance was the norm. Dissidents of any hue were closely “monitored”. Trust me that you’d not want to live in such a society.
I can’t really argue with any of that.
You can’t have freedom without security. You can’t pick just one, but it’s very difficult to maximise both. I do fear NZ becoming like one of the societies you talk about, I also fear for our security should we go too far down the other path. I guess the difference is that I see (or imagine) security threats that you don’t.
Put it this way Jacob.
Which part of the budget would you cut to fund your little crusade against the shadows?
The refugee budget.
Just kidding but I would cut funds from any and all budgets to ensure the shadows don’t materialise, Mr I’ve got nothing more to say.
Are you saying we spy on zero people?
Key made up a story about NZ rapists and murderers on Christmas Island for political propaganda purposes so I wonder why we should trust his assurances on this.
Since when is it expectable to commit millions and thousands of legal man hours on misdemeanors?
It shows how fragil our economy actually is.
In a world where fracking fluid is a thing that destroys whole communities. And spooks that protect that? And other ridiculousness?
Seriously, SIS, GCSB and the police need to be reigned in. They should be going after Actual criminals, not people who have the right to protest.
When was the last time they actually prevented anything?
Ah stuff this. I actually think I became dumber after reading these spy ops shenanigans.
Can some one give these guys a proper mission already
Well, nothing has happened. That’s the point of prevention. But we know that’s not sheer luck, or lack of enemies. Apart from those naive individuals who believe we live in some kind of protective peace bubble. The spooks don’t release a statement for the press every time they save our arses. That’s not how they work. I’d rather not cripple our country’s information advantage by ‘reining in’ our highly competent inteligence services.
Bruh. Stay off the kool aid. Your drunk.
Preventing loon wolfs? Is a huge endeavour. There are plenty of soft targets around. Airport queues, built up public places ect. Law enforcement is only good for preventing opportunistic criminals. The really serious guys like the Paris attackers typically excecute mission objectives thusly.
Receptionist in lobby: dead
Rent a cop 1 and 2 in lobby: dead
Police patrol men 1 and 2 pull up to investigate: dead
Other wise it’s actually not a crime to wave a gun around in the bush chanting a kill list. Every time GCSB or SIS evidence emerge, they always miss it up.
What they should be doing is cataloging sat pics and counting stuff as they pass through boarders. And leave the detective work to the real detectives.
Oh, I am sorry, do you have inside information on who they are watching?
Well lone wolves don’t just happen, they are radicalised and motivated by larger groups. The communication might only be one way, but it is a connection that our Intel services pick up on. And seeing as it is not a crime to wave a rifle around and preach about the slaughter of infidels, we can’t deport or jail these people, so we need to keep a close eye on them.
Of course their are other things out there, such as organised terror, foreign espionage, etc that the police cannot deal with by themselves.
None of which has happened here, Jacob. (Except by our supposed allies, France and Israel)
Ironically, native terrorism such as the massacres at schools in the US happen on a regular basis, and much of the American populace continues their deviant love-affair with guns.
If I were an American I’d be more worried about some wack-job putting together a small arsenal and deciding that today is a good day to die – and take half the neighbourhood with him.
True blue, apple-pie, and Burger King scoffing kids – coming to slaughter near you!
I believe all of that has a potential to happen here, and things such as foreign and commercial espionage no doubt do take place. I suspect out security services are part of the reason we appear so immune to to the threats other countries face.
If the US ever gets in the shit, we will have some serious problems in our region, we must be prepared to tackle them.
In the mean time, we have other problems. As you pointed out, it is not difficult to go out and shoot a bunch of people. Luckily we have the means to detect and monitor these people, making it very unlikely they will be able to hurt anyone.
Jacob, you seem to be living in perpetual fear of some bogeyman.
I am in no doubt that ISIS is monstrous and it’s leadership should be charged with war-crimes (as do some leaders in the West).
But you are living in fear.
On a planetary scale, ISIS’s terror-acts outside of Syria/Iraq are minimal in terms of a military threat to our way of life.
ISIS counts on instilling fear in the rest of us living in the West, Africa, and the Middle East, to achieve their aims.
Well, I refuse to cower in fear.
In that respect, ISIS has lost.
ISIS counts on us, here in the West, showing intolerance toward muslims, to create suspicion, fear, and intolerance.
Well, I refuse to play their game. I welcome as many muslim refugees as we can cope with (and a few more).
So in that respect, ISIS has lost.
ISIS wants to destroy our way of life by turning our open society into a surveillance police state. They know they can’t take our liberty away, so they have to manipulate us to play their game, and do it for them.
Well, piss on that idea! I refuse to surrender my values for an open society, so ISIS can gloat.
Again, in that respect, ISIS has lost.
ISIS can only get in your head, Jacob, if you invite them in.
They don’t need weapons to do that.
Just fear. That’s how they instill terror.
(It’s why they’re called “terrorists”.)
Don’t give them rent-free space in your head.
I’m not to concerned with ISIS to be honest. I understand the concept of terrorism. The likes of CNN are as much to blame as US foreign policy and our friends running around in Raqqa.
ISIS does not want to turn us into a servalence state, they couldn’t care less. They want to provoke us to the point where we react and hit back, against them and also against Muslims in general. Then they will have their global Jihad. So nutcases basically.
None of this makes any difference to our situation. It is important we keep tabs on the individuals who would like to hurt us, regardless of their motivation,as well as counter other more traditional threats. The reality of life is that people will try to hurt us. This isn’t a reason to live in fear. But pretending this isn’t the case is foolish.
Indeed. And I’d rather not give them that particular “victory”.
Look Jacob. It’s upto the community to report suspicious behaviour.
No amount billions spent on flash bat signals will ever trump good old fashion Intel from a community. That means having approachable beat cops.
Offensive spy ops depend on having agents from the community your spying on. Which is a dick move in cases where the people being spied on are the ones being repressed.
(Urgh, far out man, every time I reply to right wing extremists I lose brain cells from just reading there stupidity)
Get out a here man
Ah, the old community constable…
On that point, Sam, you’ve raised a very, very valid problem.
Most refugees come from brutal, repressive (are there any other kind?) police states. Like my folks. They had a gnawing fear and mis-trust of anyone in a uniform. For damned good reason, I might add.
I remember my mum being fearful of an old-style Traffic Officer who used to live beside us. No, mum didn’t drive. Too busy looking after us. Dad was out, working; doing a night course for his trade; plus english lessons. In his “spare time”… (!) Anyhoo, I digress. It took ages before mum and dad found out that traffic cops were not the New Zealand equivalent of the AVO (folks can google that. AVO were nastier than the KGB who trained them).
Refugees from the Middle East may harbour similar anxieties toward our own friendly Mr & Ms Plod. Remembering that in repressive regimes, police are not there to help citizens and maintain peace, they are there as tools of the State to maintain power. The last thing we need is for NZ Police to come across like their counterparts in Syria, Iraq, Eqypt, etc.
And to Jacob, I say this; it’s a shame most Kiwis took their OE to the UK, France, and elsewhere in the West. I took mine in a former communist country. It opened my eyes to how much freedom (and privacy) is really worth; how little many of us in the West value it; and how easily some are prepared to trade/give it away. (I also realised how much more socialist New Zealand was, in spirit, than any former-“Eastern” European country ever was. But that’s another blogpost…)
Ha ha funny you say that I plan to visit Poland and Russia soon… None seams to understand why not West EU or the states.
Im fairly ignorant about our police force. Compared with say 10-20 years ago, would you say they have improved or worsened their relationship with the public?
Jacob, it’ll be a real adventure, even if it is post-communism Poland and Russia you’ll be visiting. I think you’ve made an excellent choice – it’ll be the experience of a life-time. (And you will love the food!!) If you can talk with as many ordinary folk as possible, you can get all kinds of insights into how they live and view the world.
I envy you.
As for you question “compared with say 10-20 years ago, would you say they have improved or worsened their relationship with the public?” – with Middle New Zealand, that’s hard to say. There might be a mixed perception that Police, on one hand, are more concerned with revenue-raising through ticketing speeders than attending burglaries – whilst on the other hand, are still fairly highly trusted by the public.
And by that, I refer to police on the street.
Hard to say how the public view police hierarchy further up the “food chain”.
I think there was a shift after the 1981 SpringBok tour. It’s like we lost some of our ‘innocence’. We’re not quite so trusting anymore, in some respects. (Though in the case of our current PM, that trust has become practically delusional.
However, on a personal level, latest revelations by Radio NZ that the Police hierarchy are attempting to control the free flow of information to academics, is another worrying incident in a developing trend.
Part of that trend is how politicians take months to reply to OIA requests for information. I’ve had OIA requests lodged with Steven Joyce, Sam Lotu-Iiga, and Hekia Parata. Information from the first two have taken ages, and are vague and low-value. Parata has not even acknowledged my OIA lodgement and has effectively broken the law. (I’ll be laying a complaint shortly.)
The trend, on the whole, has been The State attempting to deny the free flow of information to the public. Which is annoying and worrying. Especially when that information belongs to us, the tax-payer. We’ve paid for it.
Yes, It’s easy to sit here and condem for example Russia’s actions in Ukraine, but a whole new story is opened up once you take the time to understand what people are afraid of, and how they see the world.
I’m don’t think the majority of people care about the high level stuff, as Bradbury has complained about previously. Revenue collection seems to be the main cause of complaints, probibly because that’s the most common type of contact people have with the police. Let’s hope the police make their relationship with the public a priority, as this is certainly the most effective way to deal with criminals and bogeymen alike. Damn this text is getting a bit narrow. Forgive me, the guys at work don’t have much of an apitite for politics, and wale oil is boring, hard to debate with people who agree with you.
@Jacob. Your an idiot worthy of a foot note in a Grisham novel as the guy who fell under a bus.
Really, I mean really? Your comment is about as insightful as an IS recruiting pamphlet.
People don’t get radicalised because we choose to eat McD’s and listen to rap. They get radicalised because some one is murdering there community.
They don’t just wake up one day and say, think I might commit jihad today. They have to be segregated from the wider community.
Actuall terrorism doesn’t even rate in New Sealands top ten National security threats. The biggest threat is commercial espionage.
Who ever told you to prioritise your national securities threat like that should be shot for treason.
Indeed, Sam.
If more cheerleaders for the State realised that simple reality, we might be getting closer to the root causes that produced ISIS monsters.
Exactly Frank.
Iv got nothing more to say to Jacob
No, but I can look at the world around me and make some educated guesses.
What in the actual fuck?
So is there a difference between a dum idea and a really well thought out dum idea?
The final stage of crony capitalism (the overt fascism stage) will almost certainly include:
1. continuous lying to the general populace
2. mass surveillance
3. criminalisation of protest
4. ‘bread and circuses’
5. detention/elimination of those who continue to resist.
Under John Key, we already have items 1 to 4.
We have a glimpse of what 5 would be like on a small scale, and it is called Christmas Island.
@ AFEWKNOWTHETRUTH +100
and they get away with it because Labour are clueless and easily confused and the Greens have become stuck on smaller issues like flags and solar panels and damp homes without defending the overall right of democracy and freedom that is clearly under attack.
Only Mana really seemed to be concerned and look at the massive assault on them last election to knock them out of parliament, by the opposition as well as the Natz, something they all agreed on (but hopefully post election the opposition will realise it did more harm than good).
+100 SAVENZ
You’ve got it, Martyn. Privacy concerns aside. This leads to corruption. It is corruption.
How can a small company compete with a larger one when the larger ones are State enterprises, with the powers of the state at hand?
A form of nationisation that is strangling innovation.
That’s how the Maori got f****d by the State in the 1850’s-1860’s when they controlled the food supply and the Coastal Shipping.
@Clouds
And how can NZ companies and even current global companies compete with off shore companies more corrupt and willing to do anything for profit? If winning is the only criteria then cheating will become the norm.
Key is rather paranoid evidently the police were photographing people at the TPPA Rallies?
These 40 people need to be shipped off to the Chathams or Guantanamo Bay asap, to eliminate the threat, perhaps Christmas Island may have some spare rooms shortly.
There’s more than 40 in the National caucus in Parliament…
National and MSM are entrancing NZ in paranoia and disambiguation?
“We can’t just hand over more and more unchecked power to a Government who have no problem using the state spy agency to falsely smear the Leader of the Opposition months before an election.
24 hour surveillance of people with a fig leaf judicial framework is what Police States do.”
Yes Martyn you are correct, we must fight this evil surveillance over our entire lives now.
Who is monitoring their activities?????
Do people really trust anonymous people being freely spying on us all now???
“The price of freedom and democracy is constant vigilance” and conducted by the public not the state!!!!
Martyn you have hit a nerve at the GCSB as they are hitting this site and marking our comments about them down.
The truth hurts eh?
Nah, more likely young and dateless Act-On-Campus apparatchiks bored with internet porn…
Actually I am still wondering why no one has called Key and the police on the ridiculous statement that we can watch 24/7 but we can not arrest them. Either they are being watched 24/7 and are doing nothing – which means the surveillance is proving their innocence and the state needs to stop or the surveillance is picking up wrong doing and they should be charged. The concept that they may go to court and claim they were doing something else is what our justice system is all about. Every killer says they were somewhere else it’s up to the jury to determine guilt or innocence – as they should do in these circumstances. In NZ it is illegal to financially support ISIS (I have a problem with this as it gives the government the right to determine what groups to make illegal.) If we do not have a police force that can follow a money trail then we have a real problem.
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