You would not be human if your immediate response to the horror that is Tony Robertson didn’t involve vengeance.
The foreseeable tragedy involving Blessie Gotingco and her courageous whanau demands a response, unfortunately it seems the response will be an angry ill thought out knee-jerk, the kind that helped put Tony Robertson in motion.
We should not allow our disgust and anger to blind us to asking harder questions about this issue.
One of the quirks of our prison system – public and private – is that if a prisoner will not admit guilt they are unable to get counselling or rehabilitation.
No counselling, rehabilitation or admission of quilt = the prisoner serving their full term.
Tony Robertson is what you get when you lock a broken human being up for 20 hours a day for 8 years – that human being comes out more damaged.
If we are going to lock people up for long periods of time – fine, but surely we should see that time inside as an opportunity to rehabilitate that human being to minimise the trauma they may commit post release?
Our system says that if a prisoner can’t admit guilt they are not ready for counselling – I disagree. I think many sex offenders can not come to terms with what they are and their denial is a defence. I expect admission of guilt after the prisoner has made that internal voyage with the help of some excellent counsellors, not before and I certainly don’t see denying the prisoner any rehab will create a better situation here.
What if Robertson had been given intensive counselling for those 20 hours a day for 8 years?
Let’s consider the solution being offered, that despite serving your entire sentence, the State would also like the option of keeping you locked up past your full sentence. If all the State is doing is keeping these prisoners locked up all day with no rehab, won’t the majority of prisoners in this position fail this test?
Doesn’t indefinite imprisonment fly in the face of every standard of Justice we have?
The only winners here will be the private prisons we have to pay to keep these damaged broken men locked up forever.
Our anger towards crime is whipped up by a ratings driven mainstream media and manipulated by politicians and tough on crime lobby groups. It is that heat rather than light which has landed us with such a counter-productive prison system.
We either want to try and stop the pain the victims of these damaged broken men suffer, or we want to satisfy our lust for vengeance.
We both can’t have both in a civil society.
The first question any journalist should ask the Correction Minister is how many prisoners in NZ prisons are in a position where they will serve out their entire sentence with no rehabilitation because they won’t admit guilt?
Let’s find out how big a problem this is.
True Martyn,
“We both can’t have both in a civil society “Our men that died on foreign fields would agree.
So we must speak for them, those who fought to overcome this inhuman NAZI retaliation exacted others who lust for their extermination because of indifference.
We are moving away from a human society by these ultra right wingers that want their revenge as we have seen in the 1930’s so I agree we need to have a good look at ourselves before judging others and be human about it all.
While I agree with the main thrust/ideology of this piece, I think most would acknowledge that there are some people that simply cannot be rehabilitated, irrespective of the effort put in, safely back into society. Someone like Graeme Burton springs to mind. So giving the state an option of permanently locking up certain individuals I feel is sometimes not only appropriate but the only real option.
What you’re referring to is the Justice System rather than the prisons.
Prisons today are mostly just warehouses for very bad people, where, short of putting all the inmates in permanent isolation, bad things will happen, regardless who runs them.
As for rehabilitation, is this even possible with someone like Robertson? Won’t he always be a danger to society and need to be locked away?
Really, Andrew? “bad things will happen, regardless who runs them”?!
In which case, what was the point of the contract between Serco and Corrections Dept?
The promise was that contracting Serco – and paying them $300-plus million in the process – to manage Mt Eden and Wiri prisons, would improve the way those prisons were run.
Now you’re saying it doesn’t matter who runs them?
That’s a pretty damned expensive $300 million contract for no real difference.
Quite correct Frank, I agree.
But don’t overlook the fact that Andrewo’s position also assumes the guilt of all convicted prisoners.
We know that just ain’t so…
I’m just quoting Beven Hanlon, the boss of CANZ the Corrections Association (union).
I suspect he knows more than you.
You’re “quoting Beven Hanlon” without any attribution of source or link?
Oh yes, of course you are, Andrew.
The rationale for contracting Serco to run Mt Eden and Wiri prisons comes from this government, not the prison-guard union which has consistently opposed Serco’s involvement.
Making up sh*t like you seem to be engaged in, doesn’t change the facts one iota.
Google is your friend – do your own homework sunshine.
So you can’t back up your claims? Ok, you’ll not be surprised then when no one takes you seriously.
Does someone still have to cut up your meat for you?
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/07/guest_post_all_jails_are_bad.html
There, that wasn’t too hard, was it?
All you have to do, Andrew, like any grown-up, is reference your quotes.
Though it’s interesting to note you’re referenced Kiwiblog – a right-wing blogsite – and not Bevan Hanlon directly. Not very accurate in terms of actually finding out what Hanlon said?
So I had a look… and it seems that you (and Garrett ) have misquoted Hanlon.
This is what he actually said;
Source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/70549025/bashed-guard-public-prisons-just-as-bad-as-private-jails.html
No wonder you didn’t quote Hanlon directly. You deliberately mis-represented what he was saying.
Not very fucking honest of you, is it?
Surely the crystal clear logic to warehousing prisoners in prison is to do something with them whilst they are there for the better rather than state sanctioned torture and violence! And I say state sanctioned because our wonderful duplicitous government know damn well its going on but turn the biggest of blind eyes to it and are therefore as culpable as the thugs who meted out the beatings!
XRAY: I think you’re right. Reportedly about 50% are illiterate so that’s a place to start.
However first prize is that shouldn’t have to go there in the first place. In NZ, in order to get incarcerated you generally have to be a repeat and violent offender. These guys are not Boy Scouts!
First prize would be to minimise the damage done by solo mums bringing unwanted children into society purely for the sake of the cash only to watch boyfriends bash them senseless and then to fix an education system that lets thousands slip through the cracks and finish up as teenage illiterates.
But hey, that’s another topic for another day
You’re blaming solo-mums, Andrew?!
Ye gods, the stupidity…
Quite right Martin.
What was also sick was some Corrections Department spokeswoman telling us they did everything they could with Robertson. They met all their “tick the box” standards and everything. We did a really good job on this guy was the inference.
Well lady, Corrections failed abysmally and if this the best you lot can do then there needs to be heads rolling from the minister down.
Corrections is a sick patient who under National have all but become terminal. We have seen their budget torn to shreds. There always seems to be enough money to throw around on the likes of SERCO but bugger all else when it comes to doing what their name suggests, “correct” if that is possible or at least genuinely try to help the very people who end up in jail.
You are right, the kind of shit that call talk-back radio to bleat about crime will never ever get off their arses to do anything positive about it. The insanely named Sensible Sentencing lot exemplify this perfectly!
When prisoners are released from jail they may really want to change but will find society rejects them, they can’t find work because they’ve been to jail and so the punishment continues and on the vicious circle goes. Sure there are true evil out there but for most they got it wrong and they know it.
We as a society must move on from this mess we’ve helped create and overhaul this so called justice system however I am without doubt it is beyond National to do so.
You are right, by denying Tony counselling and rehabilitation efforts we only created a (worse) monster.
You have very valid points about how these damaged individuals cannot see their own problems until they have had much self work. The self assessment work does not happen automatically by locking someone away, there are great programs already that could have helped this poor sick man and to hear he wasn’t included just makes me sad.
Yes, our first instinct is to punish, but we might all do well to ponder what abuse Tony has suffered in his own life to make him this way.
Yes there is a problem with parolee monitoring, but the inherent problem lies within the system which should have at least tried to reach this lost soul.
How were they denying Tony Robertson counselling and rehabilitation when he was the one who was refusing it? It is a two way street here – is “Bomber” saying that Corrections staff should’ve strapped him to a bed and wheeled him around to the various programmes?
You nailed it Adrian
To suggest he could be ‘counselled to be good’ is a bit like Evangelicals saying you can ‘pray the gay’ out homosexuals.
He’s a psychopath.
Good Martyn, very good.
I don’t know anything about Tony Robertson aside from what the media has told me, so I do not believe I can pass judgement on him.
What I certainly can pass judgement on is the below UN standard of incarceration in this banana republic we call home.
It is totally predicated on revenge punishment and that’s where it starts and finishes.
Rehabilitation is a complete sham and is not a reality in your prisons. I speak from experience. It is only there to allow the middle class blockheads to feel smug. That’s all. It’s a sop to the public.
For at least the last forty years, research overseas has shown better alternatives than The Wizard of Id’s dungeon.
Nothing has been done in the least to change that model.
When will you fuckwits learn that you get what you sow?
As long as you give ear to vengeance merchants like Garth McVicar and his Punishment Eternal mob, this situation will continue.
The clowns you have put in charge of prisons don’t give a fuck. If they did they would make rehabilitation programmes available without the necessity to admit guilt. They would also accept that their job is NOT punishment but prisoner welfare.
Being in the prison, lack of normal freedom IS the punishment.
The fact that an admission of guilt is necessary to take part in these programmes suggests that they are more to do with brainwashing than genuine rehabilitation.
The longer you ignore this and keep buying this right wing shit about punishing, the longer it will be before you can ever hope to feel safe in your homes and towns.
Do you ever wonder if you will eventually catch up with the rest of the civilised world (not including America or North Korea)?
JSB
A synopsis of his offending is here:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/07/mercy_backfired.html
It is evident he is a extremely dangerous man who was predicted to reoffend and did so. The JUSTICE system let failed Blessie, not the prison system.
Regarding rehabilitation, what specifically do you propose for someone of his ilk?
Maybe he could join you in the National Party?
Andrew – linking to more garbage from a right-wing blog is hardly a solution. All it shows is that you have very little capacity for original thinking.
Question: What is National doing about this?
Answer Burying the whole mess in an “inquiry”. Far rather than do something real about it they will take the route they always do, have some phony investigation aimed to
a) take it off the front pages
b) buy some time and…
c) stop any more damage to them!
And the prime example of why this is a phony inquiry is the ministers attitude: Lotu IIga has stated that “he was confident Corrections had done everything they could to monitor Robertson, but he now wants the department’s role to be reviewed. He went on: “I have decided the family of Blessie Gotingco and the public need some independent assurance about Corrections’ part in the handling of the Robertson case,”
You see the Minister of Corrections things everything is Kapai. Well it ain’t Sam and any Minister who thinks that should have their ministerial warrant torn up in their face!
Before you rush off making this a party political issue, you should look at this chart showing the steadily declining murder rate over time:
http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/global-publications/j/justice-sector-report-2013/images/murder-rates/image_large
With a noteworthy improvement from 2009 to 2011 which could just be luck or possibly a result of National’s ‘3 strikes’ law.
Actually, Andrew, in your rush to judgement, it appears that the other countries have been trending down as well as New Zealand. Do they have a Three Strikes Law as well?
By the way, the Three Strikes Law would be redundant in the case of murder. For murder, you’d get 17+ years in prison, plus a life-time on parole, meaning you could be recalled at any time. So the Three Strikes Law is hardly the “deterrent” for murder that you think it is.
For the government, prisons and prisoners are an easy target to start their privatisation bid. Most of the New Zealand public will have little sympathy for the prisoners, which the government knows, and this allows them a good place to start, stuff up and get away with it, then continue on privatising – notice the next thing they are eyeing up for serco to run is to do with benefits etc. Again few NZers will show sympathy when they stuff this up too.
Exactly right Kim. Convicts are the least liked group (after politicians of course!) and gain very little sympathy or compassion, even from members of this blog. So where better to try the Natsis’ desire for social welfare privatisation?
Social welfare?
You betcha. This is a practice run for more privatisation in the coming year or two in benefits etc.
And remember the welfare of prisoners is the responsibility of the government (or has been so far…).
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