New Zealand’s spy agencies have long presented intelligence sharing with their US counterparts as mutually beneficial and benign. That stance has always lacked credibility and is now its impossible to justify. The just-released US Senate Intelligence Committee report shows that one of the NZSIS’s main American partners, the CIA, is a sadistic organization which runs torture chambers and has been covering it up this reality for years.
The Guardian coverage of the CIA report presents a table of 47 countries that it says “facilitated CIA torture”, which includes Britain, Australia and Canada. New Zealand is not mentioned, but we mightn’t easily get off the hook. Some of the “suspects” captured by our SAS in its early deployments to Afghanistan may well have been sent to the CIA torture chambers at Detention Site Cobalt, alongside the Bagram airbase. [Some NZ intelligence operatives were stationed at Bagram.] The Senate report details the horrific treatment of prisoners at Cobalt, some of whom died from the torture.
It’s also likely that some of the information US intelligence picks up through the Waihopai spy station has been used in its “harsh” interrogation sessions.
Predictably, Republican Senators are now trying to argue that the torture was effective, challenging the report’s conclusion, based on detailed evidence, that it only produced “fabricated information, resulting in faulty intelligence” – which makes sense because suspects will invent and say anything to make their torture stop.
Arguments over the practicality of torture avoid the fundamental issue, which is a moral one. By brutalising prisoners in its care, the CIA descended to the same moral level as the “terrorists” it claimed to be fighting. And almost all the “suspects” tortured were never brought to trial on any charge. Torture is a black and white issue. It is not warranted in any circumstances, and by breaking that rule the CIA has undermined the fight against the torture by repressive governments in other nations.
The revelations in the Senate report also highlight another feature of Western intelligence agencies: their lack of accountability to elected bodies and the way they attempt to hide their wrongdoing. This is one of the reasons our Parliament was so wrong to pass the Countering Terrorist Fighters Bill, and give the SIS such intrusive powers of video surveillance
This damning report clearly outlines how the CIA was central to a systematic programme designed to torture people, and lie about it. It’s conclusions come as no surprise to those who expect intelligence agencies to lie about what they do because the CIA has been denying this for years.
As Keith rightly points out, this isn’t an argument about whether torture was ‘warranted’, the argument from the greater good, because torture is never warranted. It is always wrong, fundamentally wrong.
I wonder what our government’s response to this news will be and how it will affect our cosy relationship with the U.S on matters such as intelligence gathering through the 5-eyes network?
Indeed, FreemanNZ.
As for those who attempt to justify torture, I wonder how they’d feel if IS employed the same techniques on captured US, Aussie, or Kiwi troops? None too happy, I’m guessing.
I look forward to the next US State Department announcements on human rights violations around the world.
You can’t really justify torture but IS are doing this now on anyone that gets in their way or doesn’t agree with them. Just ask any Shia, Yazidi/ Kurd who has been unlucky enough to be on the receiving end. And there aren’t just a few hundred of these incidences, there are 10’s of thousands.
They just haven’t been able to get their hands on any US, Aussie or Kiwi troops yet.
I have never understood the mentality that can reason that it is OK to perform acts that you would not allow on a dog, on the grounds that someone else is performing worse acts on more dogs. We can only be responsible for our own consciences. Let those, whom you use as an excuse, be responsible for theirs. I hope you can sleep easy with yours, Toasty.
I don’t recall saying it was ok.
I am saying that the americans are by no means the worst on the block at torture. Compared to many other organisations they are rank amateurs.
I don’t see anyone writing articles about the brutality of any of these other nations.
When is John Minto going to protest about the brutality of Boko Haram in Nigeria or complain to the Saud royal family about their human rights abuses and torture.
The americans are an easy target because they try and be ruthless and then get all squeamish and hold an inquiry.
Rank amateurs? If only.
We’re not sharing intelligence with Boko Haram nor IS. We probably are with the Saudis and we definitely are with the USA.
The point is the USA uses torture. Routinely. And they’re our “friends”.
We should not be assisting torturers, of any colour or persuasion.
So Toasty. You’re ok with torture, huh?
Let’s try it on you, mate…
If you’re still ok with a spot of waterboarding, bashings, sensory deprivation, etc, being done to you – then you have my full support.
Offensive comment deleted. Please exercise discretion with abusive language. – ScarletMod
Disgusting.
Another person who can’t read, abusive language guy.
I would have to agree with some of toasty’s comments. Torture is an evil, and rarely achieves the desired results,….as has been shown through history.
It simply indulges a sadistic side of the perpetrators.
But toasty is right. There is gross abuse of human rights in many countries happening right now that we never ,ever get to hear about.
And one good thing about the USA is there is still many , many good and decent folk there , -that if they find out about this sort of thing ,- they’ll have no qualms about shouting it from the rooftops.
There’s a lot of good Americans ,and they have the courage to at least try to keep it an open society,- whether they are always successful is another matter.
Just as there is good people in any other nation.
But that said…in no way shape or form should the sickness of torture be used on any human being.
Ever.
thing would they listen, we say things like that, thinking the governing body will step in and do something. They should be arrested these torturers. Horrible part of the real world.
Torture is a pretty ugly business but how come all the vitriol is always directed at the Americans? Sure they have tortured quite a lot of people and as you say “some of whom died from the torture”.
I would suggest that quite a fair percentage of people were actually terrorists.
Why not get upset at some of the way worse persecutions going on around the world? I see plenty of demonstrations around the world against Israel and holding Hamas up as some sort of charity organisation.
One example would be the Hazaras in Pakistan. They even have a web page detailing some of the major attacks against them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hazara_people
Why not get angry on their behalf instead? They have lost 10’s of thousands of innocent civilians in the last few years. Why not protest against the Pakistani ISI who enables these attacks. I could go on to detail any number of far worse atrocities than anything the Americans put together.
Are the Americans convenient because its unlikely that you will disappear if you speak out against them?
I refer you to my earlier comment;
“It is always wrong, fundamentally wrong.”
It doesn’t matter who is doing it or why. The only reason why the Americans are being singled out here now is because that’s what the post is about.
And I refer to my earlier comment. Why just single out the Americans all the time. Why not ask for the Pakistani ISI to be called to account, or the Saudi religious police or any of the various eastern european death squads. They do far worse things than the CIA could ever think up.
You don’t see any of those guys issuing reports about stuff they maybe shouldn’t have done.
Maybe because the American Empire holds itself as a paragon of virtue – and now stands exposed for it’s rank hypocrisy, Toasty.
Next time the US State Department issues it’s perennial list of nations that engage in human rights violations, the world will respond accordingly.
Stands exposed! They exposed themselves. (insert joke here)
All these other countries believe their own way is also right but you don’t see them second guessing by allowing any oversight. Not saying the Americans are squeaky clean. Just saying there are worse monsters abroad in the world.
We can only begin to guess at some of the human rights violations comitted by non americans.
So you’re saying torture is ok, because others do it worse?! I doubt any foundation for respect for human rights can be predicated on such fluid “morality”.
Once again. I never said it was ok. I am asking why there is never any call against anyone other than the Americans. How linear are you people?
What the fuck do you mean it’s bever directed at other people? Are you that selective with your hearing and sight? Do you not pay a blind bit of attention to events in China, Nth Kora, and Iran and the crimes they commit against their own people?
Grow up mate.
Offensive comment deleted. Please exercise discretion with abusive language. – ScarletMod
You really are an angry person.
I know these regimes do terrible things to people. Where is our outrage. I don’t see any columns about it on here.
Are you actually able to converse without losing your rag?
does not make it ok at all. We used to lead in the world by setting the example of NOT behaving in the same way. To as they say in kindy to kids “use our words”.
You are just getting boring now. Point out the bit where I said it was ok.
Toasty…I agree with the sentiment of much of what you say but for me this is about maintain moral credibility. If we resort to (or even approach) the same disgraceful behaviour as those we criticise, how do we have the credibility to criticise? Yes there are countries and ideologies that are doing worse, but we’re better than that. Or at least I’d like to think so.
Have to agree with you on this on, Nehemia. Your comment sums it up well; “If we resort to (or even approach) the same disgraceful behaviour as those we criticise, how do we have the credibility to criticise? “
“I would suggest that quite a fair percentage of people were actually terrorists”
Interesting.
Setting aside the unspecified basis for your observation (colour of hair? Speak Arabic? Muslim?) it highlights the fallacy of torture.
Your assertion implies there are some “not terrorists”.
Now we know from anecdotal evidence that the tortured will confess to whatever the torturer wants to hear. We will therefore have some “not terrorists” who are confirmed terrorists through false, coerced confessions.
How do we now ascertain how many terrorists we have tortured?
Another point that has been totally ignored is this business of “terrorism”. It seems that this is a crime that owes its criminality to its level of success (or lack of).
Some examples of people whom various governments have labelled terrorists:
Simon Bolivar
Che Guevara
Menachim Begin
The Dali Lama
Geronimo
Te Whiti
….ad infinitum. Only History can judge.
Perhaps you might now be getting an inkling of the reasoning behind
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CAT.aspx
From where I sit, the “news” that our supposed “allies” have been guilty of these crimes against humanity is just another sad confirmation of what has been obvious to anyone with the audacity to question the established narrative and History of the past century.
New Zealanders have been the willing accomplices of Britain and the U.S. due to a misplaced belief in a shared sense of decency and Justice that has existed solely in propaganda. History tells a totally different story.
The political cultures of Britain and the U.S. bear no resemblance to the image of Democracy most people carry in their heads. Both have long been under the capture of an ideology completely alien to the democratic ideal. This ideology is totalitarian in nature, sired by power and born of ignorance and the chauvinism of Church and Race.
Appeals to Decency and Justice are simply the tools used by that ideology to raise cannon-fodder.
Those “New Zealanders” who oppose an independent foreign policy, who would see NZ continue to align itself with the U.S. and Britain, must also take ownership of these crimes. There should be furious debate in our House occasioned by these revelations. Key and cronies should be called to account. Their continued membership of the “Coalition of the Willing” places them squarely in the dock.
I agree with John Cleese:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCgfbLr-8KA
…If Democracy has been manipulated into instituting the supreme embodiment of totalitarianism – torture……it has failed.
I have difficulty agreeing with Cleese that it is funny however, unless perhaps he is employing absurdity as a tactic as his “no hope” comment would seem to indicate.
Warren Zevon is one of my favourite absurdists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhRRWwH3Fro
The fact that the report was made public at all demonstrates more accountability than that being seen from the other side though.
Why? What’s going to happen? The only person jailed so far is the CIA whistle blower.
Hi,
Our government’s responce will be no responce. It’s Christmass. They’ll sweep it under the table and hope it’s forgotten by the new year.
The real question is how will this affect future decisions by our goverment? And I fear the answer. Our economy is tanking. We’re cosying up to the Chinese. And they’ve just asked for an arrangement for extradition. A country that routinely executes prioners. Now Key says that that would be a stumbling block. But somehow I doubt that will be one for him for long. It’s about business not the principle of fundamental human decency.
Cheers, Greg.
the rhetoric from the american government is much like keyisms
its not torture its enhanced interrogation techniques
the frame of reference in the investigation didnt include the possibility of any criminal investigations
Yes thats whats in stall for us all….
Not many people seem to have read 1984 by George Orwell but i have and i can tell that these people in government policy making positions have also read it, they seem to have almost pulled off making this warped world a reality…..
also Kafka’s “The Trial”. Another good illustration of where we are or soon will be.
It seems all countries want to jump on the intelligence sharing band wagon at the expense of their citizens’ privacy and rights.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/12/9/japan-strict-statesecretslawintoeffect.html
Yep totally agree. Torture is wrong full stop. Torture without a trial is even worse. Taking the moral high ground (like US) is just alienating the intelligence of normal people. It’s not really that complicated. Torture is not acceptable under any circumstances and in addition accused need
the right to a fair trial. What scares me is that both of these human rights issues in the Western world are now gone and the perpetrators are our own governments and allies. First it is external terrorists, then internal ‘terrorists’ then ‘dissidents’ and then ‘activists’. The new surveillance laws are directed at the latter.
Still doesn’t change the fact Toasty has a point. Essentially , its in accordance with Amnesty International. Now Left wing or Right wing ,…when it comes to torturing human beings…wev’e all got to sit up and take notice.
Whether your an American torturer or from some other country doesn’t matter jack shit.
Offensive comment deleted. Please exercise discretion with abusive language. – ScarletMod
Furthermore as we all know….torture is happening RIGHT NOW as we sit behind these computers and type. And one point Toasty has made …that it is not exclusively an American thing.
And one thing in the Americans favour is at least they have people in position to be able to expose it when their own nationals indulge in it.
And to be blunt ,…there are all too many other country’s who never would do the same, – and indeed will go to great lengths to cover it from world opinion. And still seek a seat on the United Nations.
That said , – this latest smarmy John xKEYscore move to slime up to the WRONG side of American foreign policy is cause for alarm ,- and further more reason to get this lying traitor out of power.
“And one thing in the Americans favour is at least they have people in position to be able to expose it when their own nationals indulge in it.”
The report was “heavily redacted”. I have seen the figure 80% quoted.
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