As the dust settles and we struggle to understand what the bloody hell happened on Saturday, many point to Kim’s failure at the Moment of Truth to present his evidence. I think that Kim was poorly advised and that politics requires a strategic thinking well beyond the ability to simply organise events. Here is the speech I would have suggested Kim make right at the beginning of the Moment of Truth if I had been inside that strategy meeting…
“I have spent months declaring that this will be my moment of truth, but I have decided after listening to Glenn Greewald, Julian Assange and Edward Snowden that the mass surveillance evidence they are presenting is more important to all of New Zealand than my personal fight against John Key. I have decided to take my email evidence against Key directly to Parliament’s Privileges Committee where I can fight Key face to face. Tonight’s evidence is far more important to all New Zealanders than my personal fight against the Prime Minister, and I implore you all to listen to what they have to say. My fight against John Key is for another time, right now we need to give all our attention to how the Prime Minister has managed to trick New Zealanders into allowing mass surveillance via the GCSB legislation. I ask you all to listen to them.”
…I believe that if that had been the starting point, it would have reshaped the media’s desire to attack Kim and write off all that was revealed by Assange, Greenwald and Snowden.
To my total surprise and shock, my fellow New Zealanders have decided that mass surveillance and dirty politics isn’t something to recoil from, it is something to support.
What fellows we are.
You can fool most of the people most of the time. It’s called marketing, PR and propaganda. Until we have a non commercial independent media in New Zealand this will always be the case.
And the Minister of Propaganda who is running ‘The Attack’ blog
who is fooling some of the people All of the time, for an earn.
With hate speech and negative campaigning on behalf of the 5 headed beast.
This so called NZer, has whip up dirty politics with a shark feeding frenzy,
The loyal followers faithfully follow and just say,
“Baaaaa Baaaaa … shall I bring the mint sauce?”
Stay Hard TDB
Communism bans commercial media because it looks after the interests of a right wing elite. Civil society and elections are banned under communism because special interests always come together and work to safeguard those interests. Commercial media is the price we pay for liberal democracy. It sucks but hegemony is always unstable and the left still wins elections when it’s all rowing in the same direction – in spite of commercial media.
Martyn, I don’t believe your proposed speech would have made any difference – as Snowden pointed out, the break between those who favour mass surveillance and those who oppose it is about 50/50 in the USA and the UK. Although one of the best televised spectacles I’ve ever seen, the moment of truth did come across as pure spectacle to many New Zealanders and it was easy to spin it and cast Key as the underdog. Meanwhile, few on the left still do not get it that there was an overwhelming sense that, first, Nicky Hager, and then Dotcom were trying to influence our vote. When my partner asks me to do something I often bristle and dig in my heels. When she makes me think that that said something was my idea, I do it willingly.
RAHCHCH… you would do well to research what Communism is, or what it was meant to be. What you are describing is what a lot of right wing types would like you to think it is. It might even, because right wing types by and large are pretty silly, be what the right wing itself believes it is. But it ain’t what it is for real.
And don’t fool yourself into thinking that countries that call themselves ‘Communist’ are indeed Communist. The Soviet Union from Stalin’s time, and China since at least Mao Zedong, are examples of State Capitalism. Ever heard of State Capitalism? Take a look. Somehow or other (hijacking) the dictatorship of the proletariat morphed into a caricature opf itself. As for Cambodia under the Khmer Rough regime – I’ve never been able to figure out that horrible nightmare. Communist it was not. Ever.
Elections were always a part of the Soviet system, and you didn’t have to be a member of the Communist Party to stand for office. That no Parties other than the Communist were permitted formally to contest election by no means constitute a lack of democracy. It is a democracy in a different form. The attitude was that Party Politics is mere factionalism, and factionalism is harmful to the State, harmful to community, and harmful to people as individuals. My own attitude is that the fewer Parties in politics the better, with zero the ideal number. I believe that Communism had 9broadly speaking) a similar ideal.
Well, we have seen in recent times examples of what harm factionalism can do, haven’t we? It has often been observed that the failure of the Left in this country (and world wide) to gain any traction is due to its propensity to turn upon itself, and tear itself apart.
Whilst this is so, the right wing has little to fear from the Left. Mind you, so cowardly is the right wing, that no machinery of State seems sufficient to allay its terrors, however small, and however much a product of its own fevered guilty conscience.
But, you know, almost everybody has forgotten something about Communism that Karl Marx (‘Je ne suis une Marxiste!’) himself observed. A prerequisite is that humankind undergo a ‘change of nature.’ That change had to be of a type that Jesus described in the development of a Christian: to be ‘born again’, to ‘love thy neighbour’, to ‘judge not, that thou shalt not be judged’, … etc.
You get the picture?
Utopian, yes. A goal difficult to obtain, sure. Close to impossible in the ideal, granted. But surely humankind is capable of fixing its eyes upon such a prize, yes? I would love to think so, I really would. But Vanity, the arch-sin, is so difficult to expiate… and so beguiling in the meantime.
well conveyed dear King.
I was kept interested until you put all your eggs in with the five loaves and the never ending fish basket.
Grief!
There is no God… get over it and move on towards reality based reality.
“Some of the people all of the time ? Key supporters…All of the people some of the time ? The “election” result… Some of the people some of the time ? Labour and New Zealand First supporters of Te Tai Tokerau… They have worked out that they only have to fool enough people at election time”
Funny, isnt that where TVNZ started out?
Yes – I think that would have a huge difference. It would have been the truth about the MoT.
As for the Dirty Politics and mass surveillance the populace just didn’t get it – Key owned the debate (what debate?), was able to frame it as he wanted. The side that gets to frame it usually wins it.
It was a privilege to listen to Edward Snowden!
Such a shame it needs to be spelt out to NZers that that is what exactly happened. I didn’t need a speech such as the above to understand….obviously many did. But yes, if that is what it would have taken to get people to listen up and at least try to understand then maybe you are right and something like this should have been said at the time.
Yeah well – acrually I disagree – it was the opening remarks that instantly framed the response – the opening remarks were clearly about a personal conflict and derogatory emotional snipes at one person – they did not capture the attention of the audience (television audience) I personally was not only astounded that this was the tone of the meeting – but also repulsed by it. Stopped watching it in fact not far in – the native Affairs debate on maori televison was much more constructive – I think that negative and personal stuff should have been left out of it altogether and the presentation by Dotcom and Harre should have been way more statesman like – presenting as people with integrity instead of people whith a bone to chew and using the very serious democratic process in NZ to chew their bone – actually I take back including Laila Harre -in that remark – I think she probably tried her best but was left footed a lot of the time by the sniping remarks coming from her left. I agree that it is a real pity that the issues highlighted by Snowden and Assaunge were presented in this framework – and not at a forum where national democratic debate is likely to ensue – but I have faith once the election dust has cleared that these serious issues will remerge and be given the respect they deserve and full debate will ensue. I know that there is real risk that Totalitarian governments can cause a heap of damage to citizens in the evcent they have access to and control of mass databases – Hitler and the Kumer Rouge are extreme examples that we are all aware of and we need to enure that we have a society which enures it does not set up a framework for history to repeat – but on the other hand we also know that the internet is a hotbed of crime and that the very repulsive cormes of pedophile rings and child pornpograhy and also Fraud are easily accomplished vis the internet – as a population we find these crimes abhorrent and expect the police to not only catch the offenders but as far as possible limit the oppportunity for this sort of crime to develop. So – two big reasons – one pro and one con – the debate has to be more balanced – because the resolution lies in the development of a balaance between protection of the population and personal privacy – it is not a winner takes all sort of debate – and I believe it NEEDS to happen – – – – with dignity.
When Key gets personal and bitchy and fires out off-the-point, smart-ass, derogatory one-liners, his sheep-like supporters and the mainstream media eat it up. Yet when others give it to him back they’re repelled? Listen, you’ll never get through to the kind of people who support our beloved PM, no matter how sugar-coated you wrap the message. They. Just. Don’t. Care.
Martyn, I think we’ve seen enough of your strategic abilities for one election. Once again, you’re simply wrong. When Zuckerberg said ‘privacy doesn’t exist any more’, he was right. Most people simply don’t care if they are surveilled, because they know they have nothing to hide – and they also know that personal peccadilloes are of no interest to national security. We also know that bad people live in the world along with the good ones and would prefer that things are made harder for those bad people.
Nothing to hide, huh, Deejay?
Is that why you’re using a pseudonym?
Considering how many Facebook (and blog) posts I have seen in the last 48 hours suggesting that voters who did NOT support your left view should be, among other things, shot, castrated, lined up etc etc, then no – I’m not surprised he/she is using a pseudonym.
Isn’t it ironic Frank that the general public have more to fear and have more real threats from the Left regarding what they post online, than from the Government?
I have not had anyone from the GCSB threatening me or my family for posting negative, anti-government sentiment.
What I HAVE had though are threats for not supporting every idea from the Left.
Go figure Frank, go figure.
….no response? I am disappointed Frank. Because right there…RIGHT THERE…is the actual point.
We have more to fear from ourselves than from the government in this country, when it comes to what we put out there online.
The NZ posting society in general are so irresponsible and the behavior so outrageous, that our biggest threats are from each other.
Why do I not post with my real name? Because I fear my fellow citizen. Not the government.
Old adage….the people should not fear the govt ,-its the govt that should fear the people.
Two points .
1) If surveillance was so successful , why is it that authorities are in general two steps behind every nail bomb , shooting , development of large guerrilla fronts , assassinations etc?
2) there is a major difference between designated surveillance of a target and mass surveillance of a population. If you were part of a lobby group that was peaceful , yet opposed govt policy -all that information could be collated and used to smear, discredit , defame for political reasons. Which is exactly what happened to Mr Kim Dotcom and Internet Mana.
You miss my point.
I am deeply concerned about the creeping line in the sand that governments use to justify surveillance. There are real world examples (and not just theory) to back that fear up.
My comments though were directed at Frank’s rather spurious feedback regarding why someone would choose to post with a pseudonym.
Are you saying that I should have NO concern for someone who threatens physical violence towards me for something I post on here? Because my friend, there are actually far more real world examples in New Zealand of that….
when I post on TradeMe message board I do it as anonymously as I can
because it seems there the majority are right wing National party supports
because I am a Green party voter I have received all sorts of hate speech and veiled threats there
its not a feature of the left only you know.
but TBH I have seen a lot of bad language in comments on TDB, and strong language, but I have also seen warnings when this happens and I have never seen personal threats in comments here
and I’m talking here of left leaning commentators
So when the forefathers of the United States drew up the American constitution , -that included a militia NOT just to defend from hostile intrusion but also their OWN govt – you are saying they had less wisdom than YOU?.
A little remembered fact is that part of that constitution is ‘the right to bear arms ‘.
Was that ‘right to bear arms’ designed to be implemented against each other ?
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was included so as to be able to muster a militia in case a govt became totalitarian in nature – exactly what the constitution was written to guard against.
If they – back in the 17th century had wisdom enough to observe the excesses of the monarchy’s and govt’s of Europe from whence many immigrants had come from……how much more should ANY country in the year 2014 be vigilant to guard and protect against govt abuses ?
Keys lying to the population about 1) the purpose of the GSCB .
2 ) The installation of the GSCB programs for mass surveillance, – AND the covert funding from USA ….should fill you with fear. Key has proven hes a liar and cannot be trusted.
If indeed you do support Key , his lies, his selective treatment of Mr Kim Dotcom , -ALL which were proven to have been ILLEGAL (ie: the warrant , the SPYING , the incarceration , and the raid of his home ) …..then I would have to presume that you , Steve D……are in fact a COMMUNIST . Or at the very least ….a supporter of TOTALITARIANISM.
Quite anti -American , …….isnt it.
Communist? Wow. That’s something new.
My values and my family’s values are from the left. The first (and only) political movement I have belonged to is the NZ Labour Party. I was the FINSEC regional union rep for many years in the 80s and 90s. My family are involved in advocacy for worker’s rights and defending the under-privileged in the criminal justice system.
You dare judge me, just because I question whether someone should fear that what they write online, is more concerning at a personal level that government surveillance?
You my friend are the reason why the Left struggle for legitimacy. You are, plain and simple, hateful and nasty. Devoid of grace, devoid of reason. I have met Sue Bradford and Hone before and have every respect for them. They are fire-brands, but both basically people who have equal measure of love and compassion, as well as rage and fury.
You seem to have neither, and part of the far left’s problem….not the their solutions.
You present a simplistic argument: the extreme language and sentiments observed are a distinguishing trait of the political left, no acknowledgement of such behaviour from the political right. A very tribal viewpoint.
If anybody has fear of written words they find offensive that’s a rather irrational response. More a fear of hurt feelings rather than any threat to their lives. If anybody was serious about harming anybody else, it’s unlikely they’ll give advance warning.
And if there was something you did not agree on with the Govt would you or your family feel safe/comfortable posting something online against them especially with your real name… and who said we are not safe in our own country, surely you don’t believe the fear pawn going on in Australia. Best you take a closer look at what is really happening there http://t.co/6R5LiJ65TD
Is that why you’re using a pseudonym?
lols
citing Cardinal Richelieu’s statement “If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged”.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument
What dumjay only one election? Bomber was on the money with the first supercity mayoral race. You’re a Johnnie cum lately aren’tcha? and a prize expletive deleted I have lost count of the young people I know personally who have been bumped from job shortlists because of facebook!
Don’t you know ANY history even have superficial understanding of Kafka! the young are illiterate morons!WAKE THE FUCK UP!
Shona – language please. -Scarletmode
Don’t like the message? Attack the messenger. Thanks for that.
The people you know who have been bumped are obviously too foolish to lock their facebook profiles and too foolish to realise that there are blurred lines between work and play these days. They got bumped for good reason – there were better candidates who didn’t share their personal sins on facebook for potential employers to see.
Also, everyone who uses any social media has signed away their information to ‘the corporations’. Never mind the government surveilling you, sweetheart, you’ve more to worry about from big business.
“Attacking the messenger”? I think you’re looking at the wrong person for that, Deejay. We had enough of that during Greenwald’s revelations when Key revealed his nasty side and his smearing and name-calling of the much-respected journalist.
As for people putting their personal details on social media – that’s their choice. (Though media mis-using photos from Facebook is of dubious ethics.)
However, when it comes to government ministers mis-using our personal information and spying on us – that’s another matter entirely.
You may be comfortable with this, as your “tribe” is currently in power. But the moment a left-wing government is in power, I’ve no doubt you and your fellow right wingers will suddenly rediscover privacy and resistance to state surveillance.
Funny how the right wing bangs on about getting the State out of our lives – and then welcomes mass surveillance with open arms. Even thought of that?
You will think of it when a Labour-led government takes office and surveils you.
and it was facebook messaging that shafted whaleoil and collins . read dirty politics. everything said online can be retrieved and edited and used against and individual that is the reality of mass surveillance.used in courts, used to smear used to control by fear . like i said our privacy is worth fighting for. And yes the gutless like yourself deserve to be insulted.
@ DEEJAY…..Sweetie pie ,…you seem to have not bothered to investigate how the 5 EYES SPY NETWORK actually -works.
It is a mix of govt and private companies contracted and funded by govt.
It is done this way deliberately to enable any investigation into purely GOVT spying to be voided by pleading it is also not truly a ‘ GOVT’ organisation.
Thus making the paper/electronic /funding trail obscure.
So , sweetie….before you make such statements…..about having more to do with fearing business corporations than govt….it would be wise to make a more in depth investigation…..and not rely on superficiality to argue your case.
“they also know that personal peccadilloes are of no interest to national security”
It’s a way to control politicians by blackmail.
If the surveillance was just about protecting the public, I wouldn’t mind that. But the secrecy behind it means the spying can be used to watch, political activists, or for economic advantage.
We know this government has had no qualms meddling secretly in public office (SFO, OIA) for its own gain.
If you happen to disagree with the government you could find yourself, initially, with a very slow internet speed. Or worse.
Right/wrong, good/bad. Will we always have “good” authorities overseeing us?
When have we been overseen by “good authorities”? I must have blinked and missed it.
@ Ovicula…
Google searches…
Input “good authorities”…
Result… ‘Your search – “good authorities” – did not match any documents’.
Point taken.
Exactly right
DEEJAY: Hope you and your main squeeze look good in your naked selfies and sex videos because right now some spy somewhere is probably having a damned good perv at your ass. You have nothing to hide? Well you have your privacy to lose.
Inky, funny you should mention that; http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/gchq-nsa-webcam-images-internet-yahoo
What a load of Key sounding crap.
Listen to your arrogance.
Unbelievable, are you Key or a drone of the same.
Politicians should lead by example and inspire the masses, yet you condone this gutter sniper as the golden rule of conducting your way though society.
Where are manners respect & dignity, not in you or your leader Yuck!
What a load of Key sounding crap.
DEE JAY – Listen to your arrogance. Repeat addressed to you.
Unbelievable, are you Key or a drone of the same.
Politicians should lead by example and inspire the masses, yet you condone this gutter sniper as the golden rule of conducting your way though society.
Where are manners respect & dignity, not in you or your leader Yuck!
I have everything to hide.
Everything that I choose to keep PRIVATE is meant to be hidden.
I’m not ashamed of having things to hide- not even slightly.
In fact if all my private stuff was exposed to the world there’s a 50/50 chance that some people might actually think all the better of me.
I accept (usually privately) that some element of oversight in times of threat is just plain pragmatic, but I want to see some serious,transparent,accountability frameworks put in place-
because while I understand that the ‘overwhwelming majority’* of SIS and GCSB staff are born and raised in NEW Zealand and on this basis I should trust them – if they are anything representative of the voters of this country- then I simply don’t.
And while the National Party are probably just a good ol bunch of well meaning averagely competent greedfools- who may never actually want to oppresss groups of their own people- The National Socialist Psychopathy Party are a different kettle of fish completely.
When we take power by foul means we are definitely going to make use of the GCSB (and photo licenses,and banking info, and spending info) to get revenge on rich people, and people who we think should be punished for being better off than us- or different- or smarmy- or arrogant looking- or lucky.
I wonder how many will be saying then “if you’ve got nothing to hideyou’ve got nothing to fear”…..
I have a problem with the way the term mass surveillance is used. It implies, in the case of our spy agencies, that they are actively looking into the lives of our citizens all the time or at any time. I seriously doubt they have the resources or the inclination or the legal power to do that. I think some people use the term when they are in fact referring to the collection of meta data. To me this is just a passive action of saving a record of the electronic fingerprint we leave behind and is no different then the way government agencies, banks , credit companies, telephone companies etc etc retain records of our interactions with them. the way that this information can be used as a forensic tool is the aspect over which there should be control.
So I guess that if you think john key is just a dirty stinking liar sitting in the pocket of over seas spy agencies and Hollywood movie moguls then you should be worried.
On a positive note the use of mass surveillance by a supermarket in Auckland has lead to the arrest of a young man on serious assault charges. Although when you stop to think about it, it was the use of meta data that lead to the arrest. Mass surveillance and a larger security presence may have prevented the assault from occurring
What happened on Saturday was a result of exactly what Nicky Hagar warned us of. Key’s henchmen ran a propaganda campaign that confused the electorate. It became so dirty that many opted out and refused to vote, and in some cases didn’t even bother to register. Young have reported not wanting to be part of it, and/or believing Key will win no matter what anyone does because of his games.
Yes we need to fight. We need to unite to expose the corruption, and we need to look Key in the eye and not be intimidated by his technique. We are quite literally fighting for our childrens future and maybe some of the old techniques are required. Protest your butts off people – dust off the placards – we’ve done it before and by God, the evil is greater now – “its not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your Country”.
“Protest your butts off people”
All protesting about corruption does is raise awareness of the problem. Fixing it involves finding out what the root cause is and then taking appropriate action.
A non violent method of removing a govt in practical terms is a two pronged attack.
1) Radio. while internet is good…it doesn’t have the same reach as a public radio cutting across different age demographics. It also has the supreme advantage that when you have guest speakers, politicians…it removes – if so desired for the purpose of the message – any attempted disruption of opposing groups.
2) Large scale protests that can be coordinated from online AND /OR radio sources. You already have trade unions and various lobby groups in existence. These are ready sources already organised. You will find as people are squeezed financially , ….that it will gain increasing relevance. Not only to pressure govt , but to be a valuable pressure release valve for large numbers of people.
Both these basic , time honored techniques are to be used not for short term gain , but it is viewed as a long term , rolling strike action, dispensing of information , organizing of large scale numbers to combat unpopular govt decisions.
Exactly.
Take our protests to the streets 1981 style.
Yes, Saturday’s result is a truthful and brutal reflection of the values now held by NZ society, after 30 years of indoctrination by neoliberal Social Darwinism*.
* apologies to memory of Charles Darwin, whose ground breaking theory is unfairly applied in this label.
@ phil @ e-clectic It would be interesting to see who it was that down-voted you two .
I received this mail in my in-box this AM .
And I quote ;
” The election was a con job . It was rigged . There needs to be an inquiry .
Thank you for signing my petition: Hon Sir Hugh Williams, KNZM, Q.C., LLM.: Recount NZ 2014 Election – I believe it was rigged.!
Every single person who joins strengthens our call for action. Send the email below to friends and family, and post this link on your Facebook wall:
Click to share this petition on Facebook
—
Here’s the petition for forwarding to your friends:
Hon Sir Hugh Williams, KNZM, Q.C., LLM.: Recount NZ 2014 Election – I believe it was rigged.
Something doesn’t seem right with recent the New Zealand election. Evidence of fraudulent voting and it makes no sense that people would local vote left and party vote right.
Is this another case of Electoral Fraud?
http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Hon_Sir_Hugh_Williams_KNZM_QC_LLM_Recount_NZ_2014_Election_I_believe_it_was_rigged/?tDwgaib “
Anthentic????
Why would the President of the NZ Electoral Commission need to start a petition in order to take action that he deemed necessary??
Without so much as a press release?
It doesn’t add up.
(Or is it addressed to him… I guess)
The petition is addressed to him.
You been smoking Kronic, mate?
These sort of accusations bring about such tags as “the loony left’.
National won. The people have spoken. That’s democracy.
Be a good loser. Act with dignity.
Move on.
“These sort of accusations bring about such tags as “the loony left’ ”
Not really. “Those tags” are straight out of JK’s arsenal of semi-automatic self defense responses when anything appears on the horizon that he perceives as threatening from “the Left”, such as Hager’s expose of Mr Black-ops Ede.
Too funny, right on cue as JK was calling “Left Wing Conspiracy Theorist”, the whale in the room was crying “It’s a conspiracy!!” (against his bff Judith)
@newshound.go to globalresearch.ca and research election fraud techniques that have been rolled out across all western countries from america.The website has a huge database that is consulted by academics and students alike. you will see how silly your comments really are.
a recount and examination is a good idea….this election was so counter all the evidence!
The petition has the required 7500 and climbing oh please let there be a recount ,yehhhhhhh!
I have seem facebook photo shots of people voting national of boSting stealing neighbours easy vote cards and voting multiple times.
So this adds to the seriousness of this petition.
Yoohay Bomber good to see you back posting again!
Just popped over to the TDB to tell you all that I figured out what happened to the left vote after a commenting on a post by rOb at thestandard.org
He’s one of the ABC’s. Our rOb.
The 5% Labour needed to get over the line was the ABC’s voting National with their party vote.
Couldn’t figure it out yesterday , it just kept bugging me. Surely the evil Key isn’t that on to it that he bribed electoral officials. Nah NZ not quite ready for that yet.I am willing to be persuaded by evidence.
The reason Labour wasn’t visible, poor slogan etc. was the ABC’s.Despite the undermining by these woodworms of the Left, Cunnliffe through sheer guts, heart and determination got some profile and some new found support . The quagmire of biased NZ news media did not get it all their own way. I will keep fighting if Cunnliffe remains at the helm of Labour and so should the rest of the left. There wasn’t that much in it and National actually got 48,000 less votes. Low turnout once again was the winner on the day!
“An association is not an organization and not a combination. It comes into being through the conflux of the individuals within the economy. The individual does not have to adopt something handed out from a central body, but is able to contribute the knowledge and ability he has in his own field. From a collaboration in which each gives of his best, and where what is done springs from the agreement of many — only from such associations does economic life in general derive.
Associations of this kind will come into being. We can foster them and make them arise more quickly, or we can wait until they arise from necessity”….Rudolf Steiner.
Completely agree Zete. Another sign of rising awareness that a post like yours has appeared.
All it takes for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing…………this is the message those that didn’t vote should remember, no matter whatever pathetic excuse they used, e.g. it didn’t matter JK would win anyway etc etc.
When the Nat’s cut their benefit, make their lives a misery on the dole, cause them to take shitty jobs with even worse working conditions and bosses, I HOPE they realise it was in (a big) part their own fault.
We live in a democracy and so I accept this Government and it’s mandate to Govern, even though I feel they are corrupt and treasonous to this countries long term interest, e.g TPP, five eyes, tax loop holes for the wealthy etc etc.
But it’s a beautiful country so I’ll stay and get on with my life and HOPE Kiwis open their eyes before it’s all too late…..which in my humble view it will be in three years, at the next election
The 2014 election was a scam . A Neo Liberal derailment of our parlimentary process .
It might be a good idea , for a moment or two anyway , to enterain that idea rather than blame each other . Certainly at this stage where people will be feeling shell shocked and perhaps not want to engage any further .
That’s too conveniant for the Neo Liberals . That is in fact a tried and true tactic . They get us at each others throats . The Employment Contracts Act hot on the heels of a deregulated Trade Union movement is a good example of that .
Don’t be fooled . And don’t be afraid of looking foolish . There’s something going on here and we need to hunt it down and that means we must all get involved .
Re Kim Dotcom ? Yes , that would have been much better I agree but it wouldn’t have made a jot of difference to the out come BECAUSE THE ELECTION WAS RIGGED ! ! !
Calm down. It was not rigged.
Thanks Newshound, I appreciate the reassurance. As your name shows you are a journalist, please provide citations refuting the prima facie case of election rigging.
What prima facie case of vote rigging? The burden of proof is yours, not newshound’s.
Former journalist.
It is absolutely loopy to suggest the election was rigged.
Who rigged it? Key? The Electoral Commission operating for Key, being paid by Hollywood? Puh-leeeease.
Are you proposing to waste millions of taxpayer money going over this? The election more or less reflected the polls.
You lot are trolls. And do the left no favours at all. In fact, you’re part of the reason the swing voters went National.
How does it feel?
(And I don’t even vote to the right).
WELL NEWSHOUND JUST LEAVE IT THOSE WHO NEED PROOF NOT JUST YOUR SAY SO, OK
Stop shouting. Saying it louder doesn’t make it right.
@newshound.I repeat!! Go to http://www.globalresearch.ca Re; Electoral fraud. Scottish ref;2014/UK2010/and in particular.”CANADA: Fixing elections through fraud” by Prof Anthony J Hall.[last 3?] Countryboy is SPOT ON. The only rational explanation.
Yes, Countryboy. It seems to be smelling that way to more and more of us. No one who supports democracy would mind that being investigated, would they?
National got 48000 votes less than last time. 1 million voted for them. That’s bout 1/3 of eligible voters.
That’s
The 1% who benefit from National
The 10+% who expect to benefit from the 1%
The 20% that THINK they benefit from National;or Like JK; or hate Labour/Green
Probably not rigged.
As soon as it ended I turned to my partner and said most people are going to be asking why Dotcom did not speak.
Everyone at my work ( mostly National/Labour supporters) was unimpressed that he failed to front and this sadly took away from the rest of the night.
On the whole I feel IMP lost it for themselves. I still voted them but the list of own goals was too much for most people I know.
* Swearing at the media at the campaign launch
* Georgina Beyer disagreement.
* Hone not being able to answer a simple question regarding the cannabis policy.
*The release of the emails about the cannabis question.
*Dotcom coverage and the MOT blunder.
They should have been aware that any mistake would be pounced on by the media. It might not be right or fair but to think that the establishment would not attack any party bringing in the likes of Hone and John Minto into parliament is naive.
I felt disappointed on Saturday night as a chance to get some real progressives thinkers into parliament was lost.
Still onwards and upwards and now is not the time to focus on what could have been. Plenty of children are still going hungry and they cannot afford to wait 3 years for change, so I’ll still be supporting Mana and anyway else looking at making a difference!
Very astute, Michael. I think you’ve nailed it.
By themselves, each of the points you raised would have been quickly overlooked and forgotten. But cumulatively, the damage (most of it self-inflicted), undermined any mass public support. It quickly became a circus.
I would also add this point,
* Dotcom should have moved into the background, especially in public events. The old maxim, “Less is Best” applies, and he should have left the stage to Laila, Greenwald, and perhaps a couple of Eminent New Zealanders who could’ve added gravitas to the event.
But everyone has hindsight.
Having said that, I fully understand what Dotcom was trying to achieve; to raise our collective consciousness and show us what was happening in our own country.
Sometimes it takes an outsider to come in and point out what we are missing.
In the meantime, the Key “Cult of Personality” has the country in a thrall of comfortable, relaxed acceptance of the coming of the Surveillance State.
The greatest irony – which nearly causes me to cry/laugh simultaneously – is that it was brought about by the Right. The Right which espouses getting the State out of our lives.
After Key has gone, and the Cult of Personality fades, people will ask how this came about.
Much like we still wonder why so many New Zealanders voted for someone like Rob Muldoon three times running. (And Muldoon lost only because Bob Jones’ “New Zealand Party” split the right wing vote.)
Frank, I’m sure you know the right says that but has never meant it. What matters is the form state involvement takes, as no profitable business would be able to go on profiting at society’s expense unless supported by public law.
“The greatest irony – which nearly causes me to cry/laugh simultaneously – is that it was brought about by the Right. The Right which espouses getting the State out of our lives.”
Which roughly translates as privatising any potential profits whilst simultaneously replacing tax funded public services with charity. The small government narrative encapsulates the glib inherent in the ruling narrative. This is why we need super-smart people countering the right’s ‘common sense’.
I agree Michael , but I go one step further… it all seems tooo contrived to me??? How could KDC not be so smart to know that
the media would have a feild day at the left’s expense with his unvalidated email of proof!!!!!!!!
If only …
Politics and political campaigning in NZ – via American and American-style advisers – has well and truly become Americanized. Whoever best (pragmatically) deploys the PR dark arts will best strategically sway a torpid and entertainment-besotted electorate. For information on how its done go back in history to Edward Louis Bernays and work your way forward. Liberal and Neo-Liberal parties, worldwide, cynically apply these methods and prevail – despite their often unpopular policies. If the left continues to insist on ‘educating’ an uneducable, emotion-triggered (movies, TV, pulps) electorate. Insists on relying on the better angels of the electorates nature then they are doomed to flounder about in opposition whilst the right continues to make long-term, irreversible, structural changes, for which we will all pay in socially and environmentally incalculable ways.
Looking at the recent history and current state of the USA, our future looks bleak: increased fundamentalism both religious and otherwise, mistrust and denial of science and intellectualism, gross simplification of issues, personality cults, the destruction of public discourse, the triumph of the oligarchy.
It’s happening here, all accelerated by neoliberalism.
Watch the brilliant documentary entitled ‘The Century of the Self’ (and book by Adam Curtis) for an account of how the ideas of Bernay’s are insidiously employed in order to attain cultural hegemony.
One more up vote.
Getting peeved that when i use my mobile i cant change a vote if i hit a wrong button on my mobile.
With all John Key’s henchmen backing him seriously what did you expect. They had a plan B to counteract what was dug up about him. Divide and conquer was well executed to implement their evil plan. I take my hat off to Nicky Hager, Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, Glen Greenwald and Kim for a well presented fact filled evening. We as a nation must now take stock and re energize our spirits to defeat this malevolent evil.
Yep. Spot on. Why didn’t you advise him?
KDC made two crucial mistakes in this campaign.
The first: insinuating that he may have been the Whaledump hacker at the Auckland IMP campaign launch. That move (and Corkery’s subsequent outburst) took all focus off policy.
Then, as you state above, he tried to hog the spotlight before the Moment of Truth. this was a hugely important event for all NZers. But not all Kiwis are politically astute, or even interested (1 million didn’t vote) and the message needed to be crystal clear.
KDC sullied the message of Greenwald et al. The moment the email was called a fake, credibility diminished (even if the diminishment was unjustified).
KDC has absolutely no political nous. Laila really should have managed him better – but the political landscape, media have changed since her time…
Yes….isn’t it peculiar that throughout history , individuals who have brought about scientific and political change have often been castigated , imprisoned , and executed.
Some were even executed for saying the world wasn’t flat.
Others were crucified for saying we should forgive and love each other.
Nope . Cant have that. Not if your a world leader bent on opression.
We MUST have surveillance !! We MUST have militarism !! We MUST have rigged trials !! We MUST have summary executions !! We MUST be able to turn state forces against the people !!!
And on and on it goes…..kinda sick , dontcha think?
And in the years to come….the people of this country will LAMENT that they did not give Mr Kim Dotcom his dues and listen to him , Mr Greenwald , Mr Assange , Mr Snowden , Mr Amsterdam .
Look, he had the right message. He just didn’t package it properly.
He wasn’t equipped to play the game.
I’m sad he overshadowed Greenwald’s message, but he did. And has to live with it.
I’m sad he overshadowed Greenwald’s message, but he did.
I must have watched a different Moment of Truth meeting.
At the one I watched the longest Dotcom spoke was to insert a 30sec plug for Mega.
I had no trouble whatsoever hearing what Greenwald, Snowden et al had to say.
I did wonder what happened to the anticipated bombshell though. So an announcement such as Bomber’s example should simply have been a no-brainer to include. That was the real error.
I also feel nothing but contempt for the intellectual processes of those who, upon hearing Key and co’s inevitable cries of ‘fake’, immediately dismiss the possible veracity of the email.
Is ignorance bliss? In the 12 yrs of living here in Aotearoa I have never been more ashamed and shocked at the decisions the sheeple have made…where now does a progressive, liberal go?
“What fellows we are.”
We are fellows who at the call of “Tsunami, tsunami!” rush to the shore to look. Then we mourn the deaths and try to undo what can’t be undone.
And years later we still lament the blindness and dumbness.
Such was the Auckland Town Hall meeting, such was the election.
Good to have you back so soon Bomber. What National etc don’t understand yet, is that the opposition is not about to go to sleep for another three years. The momentum built up over the past few months is not going to disipate.
Labour needs to go back to being a movement rather than just a political party.
They need to be out in the community over the next three years being involved and helping to organise.
You’ve forgotten to mention Robert Amsterdam. His contribution was probably the most profound in that it tied the whole thing into TPPA and its fundamental attack on our human rights and our national sovereignty.
Labour has to get its house in order one way or the other and quick! A good start is to get rid of the rotting old deadwood in the party, many of whom have unpleasant connections to Rogernomics! Learn to work with the Greens, even in opposition. Forget Winston Peters. He’s yesterday’s man!
Introduce some (preferably young) fired up newcomers into Parliament. Fresh faces and ideas are badly needed, to prevent the party totally stagnating itself into oblivion.
As for mass surveillance. I have plenty to hide. It’s called my privacy, a part of my life that I value dearly. The Moment of Truth rally, was positive in so far as alerting Kiwis to the monster of NZ’s mass surveillance programme in conjunction with the US!
The road NZ decided to take at this election is disturbing, in the fact that the issues of continuing child poverty, mass surveillance, a low waged economy, asset sales (next our health care system and education will be privatized), smear tactics, lies, along with the dirty politics exposure etc etc, obviously mean nothing!
Then there is the granddaddy of them all, the TPPA hovering ominously in the background, which will be the death knell for NZ’s sovereignty!
This is what we will get with another three years of FJK! And to think this was voted for! Sickening!
Another alarming point is this. FJK and the Natsies now have absolute power! If allowed to see this three year term out, imagine the irreparable damage to our nation?
However, the dirty politics, the suspect GCSB surveillance issues etc, are there for the duration, so I give FJK about a year, before more slime and sleaze (via Slater) raises its ugly head again, which will be the final nail in this govt’s coffin!
Watch out for another election sometime within the next twelve to eighteen months. More revelations will require the Governor General to intervene. Then there will be a positive change for the better for us all.
In the meantime we can all help, through civil disobedience and passive resistance forms of protest to keep the issues out there, in the public domain.
Good to hear from you so soon, Martyn. 🙂
Thanks for all your amazing work for the left and of creating a place for the progressive dialogue to be shared and developed.
What is bewildering to me, recently, with regards to the dirty politics and MoT bombshells, is how these matters keep being referred to as ‘distractions’.
This is not particularly surprising coming from the right but I find it pretty highly distressing & puzzling that left wing politicians are framing it this way.
WTF is going on??
Politicians are really marginalizing the importance of certain principles that are absolutely vital to the healthy functioning of our system by referring to these matters as ‘distractions’. I expect better than this from left-wing politicians.
I accept that people get scared from this type of information, notwithstanding this however, I don’t think it is at all acceptable that our left-wing politicians continue to confuse people as to just how pivotal addressing these two matters are in relation to safeguarding our democratic system.
Truly shocked about this.
Nope.
You can’t semantic your way out of it. If you build up to the big show, you have no option but to deliver big.
The failure was in the strategy. He needed to deliver the evidence in a low-key, sober, serious legal-style, high gravitas process. Kiwis don’t like “look at me” grandstanding, especially by foreigners.
I think that Paddy Gower, summed it up on ‘The Nation’ Sunday morning. When, the two of them, Duncan Garner, and Paddy, Were standing in front of the blank screen , about to reveal the results to us. And said (Blue tie & all) Quote . [ I’m Going to Enjoy This ] end quote.
Arty Miller …thanks for that …..we need more of these reminders
what pathetic creeps…a disgrace to quality journalism…(and they are not the worst of them by a very long shot)
…i wish someone would do a thesis or some intensive forensic research on individual journalists and black ops PR and the media in this Election…and put it up for perpetuity ….for all to see and think about …this would be important research for the future of NZ democracy
It certainly could do with some serious study.
I was amazed that our back-patting, self-boosting media managed to avoid finding Jason Ede for 5 weeks.
Nothing for 5 weeks until Monday morning when it was announced he no longer worked for the National party.
Phil de Joux is now in private employment so is out of reach.
Our country needs journalists who can investigate, and fewer TV news celebrities spewing their astounding bias against them.
S. Joyce has done his best to squash our independent news. Triangle was forced to move to uhf at a purchase price that was unaffordable, TV7 was closed for the sake of $11m/year, and irregular financial support for TV3, a private enterprise, with a $36m loan from Steven through his MBIE.
We deserve some well documented record for the future about the destruction of our freedom that National has caused.
Reality: Post special votes National total percentage will be well within 1% of 2011. i.e. No change. No whitewash.
30%+ of registered voters again failed to turn up.
A large percentage of voters will always vote national and will do so until they lose their investments through shoddy economics. They say they care about the environment and their fellow man, but in reality it is their back pockets that push their buttons.
A large percentage of these voters caste their choice solely on TV presence.
An equally large percentage vote for the party who they think will win, ensuring they feel like winners.
The left is split.
The labour party is split.
Polls not only predict, they also direct.
The Internet Mana town hall event galvanised voters towards the status quo.
Accepting the truths is an important step in directing future actions.
Forget the right, do not let their self-obsessed ways trouble you any more.
Stop trying to sway the middle ground, they are fence sitters. They will move allegiances like the wind.
The focus has to be on consolidating the left, extricating the hate factions, and presenting a united force.
Hi Martyn
I have had a empowering moment today. After 40 years of receiving the Herald 7 days a week I phoned them up and cancelled it. The recording was being taped and I said great, that I was sick to death of their political commentary being so unbalanced and that their editorial content was so full of adoring views of their leader that I couldn’t stomach another day of it. Dotcom was correct when he said he could kill kittens and the people would still adore him. Well it sure doesn’t work for me. I told the paper that at the very least the readership could be given a balanced commentary and that there were other political parties out there. The final straw was the last two editions I received where I had “their leader” invading my home spread out all over the front pages along with his Stepford wife today. I told the paper that I didn’t want them tainting my home for another minute of the rest of my life.
They assured me that they would speak to management – as if I cared but it sure felt good to get it off my chest and to not have them in my home ever again. I am also cancelling my subscription for the Listener – I miss the fantastic papers I read in the UK – this stuff is just a lot of drivel.
Onwards and upwards Martyn – don’t give up the fight
Barbara
good on you Barabara…I also have been considering cancelling our Christchurch Press…it is a rag for the right wing!
I think it highlights the characteristic of poor sportsmanship on the right-wing, a quality seemingly inbred into them, when so obviously a number of right-wingers have been going through these threads since the election, ‘thumbs downing’ comments.
Doing that after such a rotten loss, really highlights why I don’t want these types in government and only further serves to fuel me to act to ensure there is not a repeat of this in 2017
So go for it, thumbs downers, knock yourselves out on this comment.
Do you feel better about yourselves now?
just voted for you blue leopard….even although the right wing appear to have won…they know they have lost the moral high ground and it hurts…their reign may be very short if some scandal and corruption come to the surface…and they know it
Thanks Seagull,
I think you are bang on there, about them knowing they have lost the moral highground [Erm, not that they ever had it, but perhaps they think they did? lolz].
It seems extraordinary that ‘winners’ would take the time to go around ‘thumbs downing’ those who are sore &/or discussing their loss.
What you say explains that behaviour very well.
I agree with bomber , a preemptive speech would have given control back to Dot. com about where and when he would drop the Dot.Com.Bomb. People were still keen to find out .
The release/leak of the email to the Herald was a mistake. The Thunder needed to happen in the hall or be post postponed with a cover speech to a later date.
Putting the pin back in the grenade ,would have continued the potential damage especially after the jolt from the Mass surveillance revelations.The shadow of doubt would continue to erode support.
But talking it up big means you also need to hit big .
Not only was the timing of the release of the email important Dot.Com. needed additional supporting evidence to cross reference the authenticity of those discussions/emails so it could not be easily dismissed as a spiteful fabrication.
A tired and staggering keys from weeks of dirty politics was ready for the knock out punch . Done properly it only had to knock a battered Keys down 3-4 % in the last week to change the govt .
What should have finished the Nats off by finally proving the Prime Minister was a liar and had mislead both the public and the parliament ,was mishandled with a lack of supporting evidence or witnesses .
You have to land a punch to make it count ,and this one needed better preparation and execution .
agreed…but you are not factoring in the biased right wing media…people like Sean Plunket and Paul Henry who took every opportunity to viciously attack Dotcom…on radio air time and television
I think you are being quite unkind in your dismissal of some internationally respected figures as a “bunch of runaway criminals”.
The issue was timing.
5 days before an election was about 5 months and 25 days too late for this conversation. “Dirty Politics” was also too close, easily dismissed as a cynical marketing ploy.
Result? Both conversations were lost to the noise and protest about the timings. And let’s not kid ourselves – the protests had legitimacy.
5 days was too little time for NZ to get our heads around, first – who these people were, second – why would they be interested in NZ, third – what did they have to say and lastly – why was this important.
KDC – if he had such important revelations – had a duty to get that conversation out there much sooner.
my question is.. why in gods name(not religious) did KDC not come out with the so called evidence, weeks, mnths ago?, to show that Keys knew bout him B4 raid on his mansion … come on, it is all rather pathetic actually. Even THOUGH a child would be able to figure that Keys knew of this larger than life German millionare in his own electorate .. obviously, the general public needed concrete evidence SO I say again if KDC had the evidence he should have coughed up ages ago to be effective in steering the public away from Keys and his crony’s! I am really angry…instead it backfired on the Left, 5 days out from the election with a so called fake email ..NO BRAINNER
Here’s why nothing would have made a difference that night. I’m friendly with a National voter, who I think is very representative of the right. He’s bright, intelligent, certainly no dummy. But he loathes Dotcom with a passion. He thinks KDC should be willing to trot off to the US and defend himself in a court of law, rather than fight to stay here — regardless of whether he was tricked into coming here through an NZ deal with the FBI. To him, any possibility of underhanded conniving by the Govt pales into insignificance beside Dotcom’s alleged fraudulent activities. It’s money against morals and money wins hands down. That’s how I believe most of those on the right see it. They want Dotcom gone. Not next year, not next month. Now. Their hatred for him means that once it was known he was involved in bringing Greenwald out and having Snowden speak, those guys were immediately seen as the enemy. It didn’t matter that these men had never been proven wrong, or that what they had to say made people with open minds deeply appalled and alarmed about what this Govt was doing. The good folk on the right were not going to listen to, and certainly not believe, the message. There was as much chance of that as Dotcom miraculously shrinking in height from 6ft 7in to 4ft 7in. Thus, with Dotcom involved, the exercise was doomed from its conception.
what they dont realise is that many cloud companies in the USA are and were doing exactly the same thing as Dotcom
….Dotcom and his cloud storage was chosen and singled out as an outsider and an example to be made by Hollywood…. to be the scapegoat for a pre-emptive legal case they wanted to make against all cloud storage companies
….it is a Hollywood BIG BUSINESS commercial sabotage case against anyone who threatens the interests of Hollywood moguls to control and own ALL cloud storage…is this legitimate?…this is the legal case…should monopoly Capitalism own and control (or destroy) all other startup cloud storage companies ?( Dotcom’s lawyer says Dotcom has a good case)
(to use an analogy ….cloud storage is like ocean going tankers…just because one tanker is used to carry illegitimate cargo eg drugs or stolen property…is this a case to ban all tanker owners and restrict tanker transport to just one monopoly company
Dotcom made it quite clear that if it was brought to his attention that his cloud storage was being used for illegitimate purposes he worked fast with authorities to get rid of the offending goods/materials)
“‘To my total surprise and shock, my fellow New Zealanders have decided that mass surveillance and dirty politics isn’t something to recoil from, it is something to support.”” No, people don’t support it, in their shock it was all too much at first to take in- the MSM, took the opportunity to swing into ‘protect Mr Key at all costs’ mode and between them they just ‘left Wing conspiracy’ every now and again he dropped in’ David Cunliffe spoke to Whale oil all the time too’ people got confused about ‘who was actually being dirty’ and in true ‘blue light mentality’ style, it wasn’t the action that caused the problem, it was the telling about it that got people’s backs up. I’ve been hearing people ranting about ‘three more years’ and then saying ‘I didn’t know who to vote for in the end, it was too confusing’.
agreed it was too confusing for the average voter!
….and the mainstream right wing media did its best to confuse the people! ( journalists are supposed to have ethics to clarify meaning and work for truth)
…we should remember this!…they should be held to account individually and collectively
….because they undermined New Zealnders’ democracy!
Travis Poulsen is an Arse 🙂
Travis Poulson is an Arse 🙂
Hi,
Personally I don’t get it. KDP is a bright guy. He built himself an internet business empire. Yet we’re to believe that he can’t work out that if he tries to run a smear campaign with an email that he won’t support five days before an election that he doesn’t realise it will kill everything he says he wants? That doesn’t make sense. The guy may look and act like a buffoon, but he can’t actually be one.
It’ll be interesting to see if by some “unexpected turn of events” he can no longer be extradited to the US shortly!
And then there’s Craig’s press secretary. Two days before the election she suddenly quits and publically blasts her leader, effectively handing 4.1% of the vote to the scrap heap and giving the nats the election. Does that make any sense?
Were we played? And is anyone investigating these things?
Cheers, Greg.
THe truth is still the truth, and the facts are the facts. And John Key will soon know that it is time to piss off from New Zealand and, never,never come back!!!
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