One of the constant refrains we get from the right wing is that we can’t afford the social benefits to go to working people.
The right wingers also claim that “we are all equal” and should be treated equally to avoid any privileges arising like Maori and others are alleged to get.
If we were really all equal then all our income would be taxed at source at the same marginal rate as for income.
Workers pay tax before they get paid and have to argue with the tax man afterwards if they want some back.
The super-rich (including multinationals and local monopolies) treat tax as some kind of theft from their birth right that must be avoided at all costs. The penalties for avoidance are near zero. In really big cases like when the the big overseas owned banks were caught avoiding billions of dollars in taxes no one went to jail and they got to pay back less than they avoided.
Companies like Apple, Google and Microsoft can structure their affairs to pay next to nothing in tax even though they have a massive presence in the economy and are reaping monopoly super profits from their business model.
The super rich in NZ should be paying at least 33% on all income above $70,000. That should include their income from company dividends and property speculation.
The super rich pay no tax on capital gains. It makes no sense. A gain is a gain. A profit is a profit. It makes no sense that if the profit is from speculative activity it is somehow better than other types of business profit or wage income and remains untaxed.
The super rich also get a special tax credit that applies virtually to them alone because the rich own shares. This is the rich persons benefit called a Dividend Imputation Credit. It is paid to owners of shares so that they don’t have to pay the full marginal tax rate on their share income that would normally apply. Since share owners generally would be in the 33% bracket that would be the rate that should apply to this income. This income comes from their share speculation. Capital gains are also not paid. But the greedy rich rewrote the tax law so that their dividends would be taxed at a lower rate than their marginal rate. They did this by arguing that tax has already been paid by the company on this income so their tax should be reduced by whatever tax the company paid.
This is logical nonsense. The company pays company tax. The individual pays income tax. The dividend is income. It should be taxed the same as other income.
This is only the beginning of the tax rort.
Working people hate taxes. We know we are over taxed to the eyeballs. We are taxed on every dollar we spend. We are taxed on every dollar we earn. We pay disproportionately to our income for every “sin tax” around – tobacco, alcohol, petrol. We are massively overtaxed because the rich avoid their share.
I always hated middle class types in allegedly left wing movements who go on about how “we” should be happy to pay more taxes to help those less fortunate. Actually “we” – the majority shouldn’t be paying tax at all. “We” are the wealth creators. The vast majority of that wealth has been appropriated off us. “We” should have a simple programme to shift all taxation off ordinary wage income and on to the incomes of the rich and their accumulated wealth.
Lets look at some statistics on what has been stolen from us in these last few decades.
The July CTU Economic Bulletin calculates that “labour share of income fell from approximately 60% of income in early 1980s to 46% in 2002 – a loss to wage earners of about a quarter of aggregate income. It then recovered to around 50% – a sixth lower than the 1980s. In current dollar terms, that is a loss of about $19bn per year or $10,000 per wage earner per year. The present value of the loss over that period is estimated at between $660bn (invested in term deposits) and $1,200bn (paying off mortgages) or 3 to 5 times GDP. New Zealand’s labour share is very low by developed country standards: Piketty considers 60-70% typical. In United Nations comparisons, only Chile and Mexico are lower among OECD countries.”
The successful right wing neoliberal offensive against working people in the late 1980s and afterwards has robbed workers of a sum of wealth equivalent to at least $660 billion dollars in today’s money!
That is why it will never be enough to simply think that a slight rejigging of income taxes is going to change anything.
It is the accumulated wealth stolen from us that needsto be attacked and clawed back. We need a whole raft of wealth taxes if we are going to begin to turn back the congealed inequality that has developed over the last few decades.
That is also why it is economic nonsense to fall for the arguments that a changing demographics mean “we can’t afford” to continue to provide national super at 65 or top quality health care to the aged.
There is a mathematical rule that you can work out how long it takes for a quantity to double by dividing the growth rate into 70. This is useful for looking at economies.
Between 1978 and 2011, aggregate labour productivity in New Zealand grew by an average of 2.73% a year according to a recent Productivity Commission report. Assuming that continues that means that every NZ workers will be producing twice as much in 26 years. The problem is not “can we afford it” but who will control that additional wealth.
For the past three decades NZ and the USA were among a few countries with the enviable achievement that their workers doubled production but ended the period poorer in real terms than when they started because all of the wealth gain was captured by a kleptocratic elite. This is the first generation in the history of capitalism for that to be a reality. Not something its defenders should be proud of.
They fact they have done it to us without us rising up in anger and hanging some of them from the lamp posts is to our shame.
But I am an optimist. Humanity is saying it has had enough of inequality, injustice and war. We want a different future. The anti-neoliberal left is sweeping Latin America and has revolutionary leaders of international stature. I think there are signs of that revolt in Internet-Mana in New Zealand. The continued attacks on that party from big business and the right shows they too may be a little afraid.
I don’t want a benefit to top up my wages I want decent wage the tax system needs a complete over haul not just more tinkering. Some one sitting on a big pile
of money is no use to society.
Hell I don’t know what planet you are from. But I have got to know some pretty wealthy people and they pay a lot of tax. It may be the super rich that may avoid it, maybe not I do not know. But they are pretty small in numbers. Persons on 100g or more pay about 42% of the tax revenue and this is not a lot of taxpayers. There’s no easy way to earn a living. You either become a professional, get a job or trade, take a risk and try and buy or create a business, marry into it or win lotto. The one’s that do make it through, they actually employ people and create jobs. Many people are paid good wages and have good conditions. It’s not all negetive you know. Some of your remarks are just sheer ingorance, you just don’t know what you are talking about.
I fully relise we need business and I don’t begrudge someone being successfully but working for families is a business subsidy. If we were all high flyers who would grow our food ,look after our old and keep our streets clean etc etc.
Mike Treen puts forward statistics, analysis and rational arguments while JRyan regurgitates one dubious assumption and provides no evidence. Which of the two is guilty of ‘sheer ingorance ‘ and who is the one that knows what he is talking about?
Rational argument that wage earners should not be taxed. Thats not statistics, thats an opinion. Teen states wage earners are taxed on everything basicially. Its no different for a business owner. The thing about working for a wage is basicially when you leave work for the day you can leave your job behind. You get paid regardless if the business is doing well or not, unless it goes under. For the owner of a small business there are countless hours of all manner of items to attend to. And many risks if one does something incorrect. Everyone should pay there fair share of tax, simple. The right employees are an asset to a company. One must always treat employees with respect and dignity, have incentives to share some of the profits and pay them well. Thats how I run my business and I have very few problems, the business is stable and I have minimal staff turnover. Plus there is little stress in the workplace, people feel valued, which they are and the place hums. Teen needs to do a little research on normal medium size businesses to learn what it takes to make it work. One might find that many businesses aren’t the high earning enterprises one is led to beleive and every dollar earned is well deserved.
Back in the 1970s and 80s sure but not any more.
No, they’re people.
And that would make you one of the minority of passable employers. But would you be willing to take the next step and make it a cooperative?
Yes with the right people. Be awsome. All involved, all sharing, no problem.
http://nz.coop/
This article is an interesting take on being a cooperative:
http://www.mixprize.org/story/collaborative-funding-dissolve-authority-empower-everyone-and-crowdsource-smarter-transparent
Blah blah blah, I’m right, your wrong Blah blah blah. Wow Jryan were did you learn rhetoric – a John Key charter school? What remarks are ignorant? What negativity? Oh working people asserting their rights, that must mean their ignorant and negative. What a load of dribble jryan, your such an apologist for neo-liberalism, vague, wishy-washy add a couple of – I can’t recalls and shit mate you’d be a great Tory scum MP.
And that’s the biggest lie of all. It’s society that creates jobs, not the rich.
Actually, it’s your remarks that show pure ignorance.
“There is a mathematical rule that you can work out how long it takes for a quantity to double by dividing the growth rate into 70. This is useful for looking at economies.”
Wouldn’t it be simpler to say ” 70 divided by the growth rate gives the doubling time”?
@ JRYAN . You may not know what planet Mike Treen is from but I sure know what planet you’re from . Planet Privilege in the Denial Galaxy far , far away . The easy money you refer to , if only one had the gumption and can-do attitude to go get it , is so far beyond being simply ignorant that my jaw , having fell to the floor is now being buried in my rose garden by my dog . You must be so padded by your hard earned money from the cold-house reality of life for most people that I think I’d marry you , for your money of course .
Moving on in case you consider that offer . And who could blame you ? I am quite the catch if I do say so myself . x
Of course , there are billions of NZ dollars ‘ out there , in other Galaxies Far Far Away . My guess would be Switzerland , that’s where Pig Muldoon was seen to be scurrying to , and from . Tricky Mickey Fay ? $ 790 million Net Worth ?
We have a huge , rich land if measured in people per hectare per productive output / export value of the product . Ie , things what folk eat and wear and stuff like that . And until we humans figure out a way to not have to eat or wear clothing , that product will always be in demand .
Eye Roll Please !
It’s what I refer to as The Great New Zealand Institutionalised Lie .
The National Party have played the manufacturers of The Product ( Agrarian Farmers ) so well , that New Zealand Farmers think the National Party are all for them . In a sense , they are right . The National Party are all for their money . Never mind how many farmers die of hardship , suicide or just get driven to bankruptcy by our corrupt legal / political systems . It’s a classic case of if you tell a lie often enough , it becomes the truth .
But I digress .
New Zealand is an exceptionally rich country . Don’t let anyone tell you differently . All those currently on benefits could be paid a high rate of pay to stay home and have fun and there’d still be enough money left to have weekly , government sponsored parties for them .
One of the psychological mechanisms used to control the poverty stricken masses in a land of more than enough would be good old fashioned Christian values , particularly Presbyterian piousness . The ” How dare you demand what you’re worth ! As for time off and holidays ! ? You’re weak , that’s what you are ! Weak ! Weak and lazy ! ” effect . Normally , the response to that kind of abuse would have been . ” Right boys ! Down tools . We’re on strike ! ” Today it’s go home , get drunk , beat the missus , ignore the kids , lose faith , give up . Die . Either literally of figuratively . You’re free to choose after all .
Patriarchal brow beating was popular in good Christian homes of the day when NZ was but a slip of a lass , but now . The poor old Gal , her stockings drooping down around her ankles , raped of her self respect , beaten into a corner , pregnant and bare foot . Weeping for her lost children .
And you , Mr Fancy JRYAN ? You wouldn’t know anything about that now would you ?
Hell another angry loser. Tell you what you loafer, I been right to the bottom. Don’t worry about that. Didn’t go on the dole, but did anything to earn a dollar. I worked, saved and slowly got ahead. Whats with you, you couldn’t make it and now you hate every bugger that does. I come from a very very humble background thank you. Well this place is depressing, I got better things to do than exchange verbal insults with the unemployable. Over an out.
^^ Typical RWNJ. Can’t find an argument that stands up to reason and so attacks the person.
Hell you got a nerve. You got blinkers on or something, Countryloser spews toxic waste from his angry jaws everytime the loser spins some crap. I think he could do with a good dose of counselling and anger management. Seems this site is full if misguided angry souls. If it is so dam easy go start your own business, be great reality check.
Oh, I’ve had my run ins with COUNTRYBOY and I’m pretty sure he’s a farmer (I tend to have a low opinion of farmers due to their polluting of our country) but you didn’t even attempt to address what he said. Just attacked him making it an Ad Hominem which is a rather nasty logical fallacy.
Oh dear here we go again. Countryloser just had so much woffle I didn;t really read it. I will scout through and answer where he makes some points. Fair comment. Now he assumes I’m somehow wallowing in cash. Wish I was, be nice for a change. Dead wrong.
Then this illusion that everyones got an offshore Scrooge McDuck account hidden away. Again maybe a few. Who cares as long as the funds are taxed. And get this statement : All those currently on benefits could be paid a high rate of pay to stay home and have fun. Okay he’s lost the plot. Do I need to answer that? Then some kind of conspiracy to keep lower income kiwi’s at the bottom of the heap. Again losing the plot. Then something about “How dare you demand what you’re worth ! Well should we just pay another 50% to the workforce? Would you be happy then??? But what would happen. Services offered would be to expensive and bankruptcy here we come. We would never export anything. And also do any of you’s buy cheap imported goods??? How does that play on your conscious? Would it not be better to pressure all western nations to only import goods from approved labour working conditions. This would help to create jobs. And as for the farmers polluting our waterways. I couldn’t agree more. All the queens chain and most watercourses should be planted in native trees. Any unused scrub land on farms etc, incentives should be offered to plant them out to slowly transfer the countryside. With this the bird life increases. And our rivers are such a great asset. Every river should flow clean. Nothing less should be accepted. Well thats it.
Ironic much?
Make the rich pay the taxes that they should = end of world poverty.
Don’t kid yourself. Such has been happening under all forms of capitalism for the last 5000 years. Piketty made it quite clear that the short period after WWII where wages increased inline with productivity was an aberration. The simple fact of the matter is that capitalism is designed to enrich a few by making everyone else worse off. It then blames the victims of it’s anti-social actions for their poverty.
It is time for a revolution, tine to stop the rich stealing from us.
It’s not really encouraging depate when you lot heap such vitriol on any contrary opinions.
The authors views on tax are extreme and need challenging
I work 70 hours a week and pay almost 100k in tax a year , I employ 5 people , I already plenty of tax, I do not use state funded health care or schools funding my kids education and our healthcare myself
Why should i pay more tax as some socialist crusade for imagined fairness,
Yeah, actually, you do. Those 5 employees you hire use public health care to keep themselves healthy so that they can go to work for you to make you richer. All private schools in NZ get government subsidies – if they didn’t then there wouldn’t be any because they’d cost too much even for the rich to send their kids there.
You get more benefit from the state and so you pay more for it’s up keep. It’s user pays.
Pete, These dudes can’t have a normal debate without attacking the messager. I tried but the verbal spew piled out. They are like religious zealots, brainwashed and angry. Don’t know really why? Just seem to have this idea that all business operators treat the workers with no respect and underpay them . Unions always seems to attract the extreme and Teen is no exception. Its a shame, because they are certainly needed. But they are hijacked by the Teen mentality and are a useful platform for them stir and express their rhetoric views.
You tried and got your arguments cut to shreds because they’re BS and then retreated to ad hominem.
Once again thats only your opinion. It’s not factual. My arguments have factual backup. For example, what has lifted millions upon millions of people from povety from within China over the last twenty years??? Communism, Socialist Policies or your hated Capitalist Policies??? I am sure you know the answer, but you could never bring yourself to admitt it. That must piss you off. Ad hominem to yourself, far more appropiate.
Ok, time to flicker away…..
I have been wondering how the hell employers sleep at night knowing how pathetic the wages are that they pay, especially those I know with a lineup of race cars for the weekends entertainment, even blowing them up while racing other rich white mates is nothing to them, hilarious even, while their employees can’t even keep a fuck’n warrant and rego on their cars just to get to the stupid, degrading, crappy, underpaid shit jobs. Also these fucks are the ones who decide to run shows like the Wallace Art Awards, they ‘gate-keep’, and never pick anything outside of the institutions they have their noses up each others arses. These honey darlings slap each other on the back and bullshit the rest of the rich idiot pack that what they pick is really great art. All the money for the ‘Wolly’ Art Awards having been made through a revolting meat-works in Morrinsville. What a pity most rich arse holes who think they are so cultured and tasteful (eating endangered animals wherever possible darlings), have no clue or mind of their own, hence architecture these days selling cheap ‘industrial’ boxes that don’t even deserve to be called houses to their clients. Hilarious as the rich idiots actually suit the houses they fawn over and giving awards to houses resembling prisons, suckers with no taste or class. All arse and air kissing crass thieves and creeps. They make me chunder in my mouth, go the working class fuck’n heroes, they deserve so much better!
Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed. -Herman Melville, novelist and poet (1819-1891)
The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race, or his holy cause. A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people’s business. -Eric Hoffer, philosopher and author (1902-1983)
We can’t afford social benefits to anyone, according to the right. Oddly enough the right don’t have any problems about paying subsidies to polluters or mega-rich foreign concerns, or borrowing billions of dollars to build roads designed to help yuppies drive to work a few minutes quicker.
JRyan, get a job and cut your hair.
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