The debate as to whether or not MANA should progress talks with the Internet Party to form an alliance went very late into the night. I tweeted it at 11.33pm after the debate had concluded…
…I wasn’t the only one waiting to see a decision, my tweet was quickly re-tweeted by Te Ururoa Flavell…
…the Maori Party, who were facing obliteration in this election already, must be feeling a terrible sense of impending doom with the possibility of MANA picking up the kind of support and fire power The Internet Party could provide. The Maori Party are likely to lose Te Tai Hauāuru and Tāmaki Makaurau as both Maori Party leader candidates bow out of politics with no strong and credible replacements. That leaves the Maori Party with only Waiariki, with a 2% Party vote, if Flavell wins, he will bring in two Maori Party MPs with him. For the left, a combined effort to knock out 3 possible votes for National is a strategic must, and with Annette able to cute Flavell’s majority from 7000 to 1800 in only 6 weeks of campaigning, Waiariki is one of the lynchpin electorates the left must win to ensure Key doesn’t.
The decision to progress with talks was unanimous as a Rohe by Rohe vote was taken giving MANA a clear mandate to progress talks, but that didn’t come easily as some members felt genuine ideological trepidation at the idea of a rich man and poor man breaking bread together, which is fair enough.
What does a person of wealth like Dotcom have in common with the marginalised that MANA represents? Other than his own personal child hood poverty, I think that when 70 armed, masked paramilitary police kick down your door in a politically motivated raid and terrorise your family and confiscate all your assets, that tends to radicalise a person.
It is those experiences that help explain why Kim sees such a kindred spirit in Hone and the MANA movement.
For the next 10 days, a MANA negotiating team and an Internet Party negotiating team will meet and thrash out a deal for an alliance. If the negotiating team think the deal is in the best interests of the MANA Party, they will present it back to the MANA movement for them to consider. That process will take place immediately over a ten day period, with the MANA consultation also set for 10 days, so total time between negotiation and consultation and possible alliance will be about 3 weeks.
This was the first major argument in MANA and its process of discussing everything and allowing everyone to have a voice has delivered them a better, stronger democratic structure, but for the alliance to proceed any further, the deal with the Internet Party will need to proceed through the very same vigorous protocols and anything that doesn’t enshrine MANAs own mana within the alliance will be rejected.
This means momentum is in favour of a merger. If they don’t merge now Mana will go back to how it has been but the Internet Party will be isolated and alone.
It’s going to be interesting to see how the negotiations go. I really think this is a big risk fro Mana. There’s a lot to gain, but they could have the whole thing blow up in their face as well. I guess it’ll be how much they can push the negotiations to really favour the party.
Also, you can’t really have the word “exclusive” in your headline. You were the first to break the news on Twitter, yes. But the NZ Herald had this up at 4:15am:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11237286
This post didn’t go up for another several hours. It’s not exclusive. It’s a simple term.
If Mana and the Internet Party can destroy the Maori Party, that is one less potential coalition partner for the Nats.
I see no downside to this.
There were several “upload” websites operating in an identical way at the time of the police raid on Kim Dotcom, but the US government decided to just single him out. From that you’d have to say he was every bit as outside the establishment as the people Mana are working for.
It still looks like an odd match though- but that’s politics for you, if you don’t like it, best to keep out,
And that’s not meant as a slur, there’s plenty of good work can be done outside politics.
I haven’t owned a TV in years, and don’t watch the daily lies at 6pm. I’ve found they’re bad for my mental health. Just now though, I watched a few clips from TV3 about the Mana-Internet Party alliance. It just blows my mind that such blatant propaganda can pass as journalism. The sockpuppets of the copyright-dependent corporate media don’t want the IP to succeed, and their operators in the 1% don’t want Mana to succeed. They are throwing everything they have at a divide-and-rule strategy, trying to talk up the differences between the Mana activists and KDC.
Clip after clip. That spokesmodel Lisa Owen on the Nation trying to pidgeon-hole Mana as being for “Big Government” and IP as neo-liberals. That other spokemodel Tova O’Brien comparing KDC and his supporters 3 cars to a Snapper Key-style cavalcade. Paul Henry editorializing and putting words into the mouths of Julian-Anne Genter and Jamie Whyte like something off Fox. KDC getting followed around at his pool party by that little prick Brook Sabin, close family member of Nat MP Mike Sabin, who whipped up ‘reefer madness’ style hysteria about P to bring business to his company MethCon Group.
Seriously, whatever happened to journalism? Is there no alternative to this torrent of reality-distorting McNews? Oh, that’s right, there’s the free and open internet. That thing the corporate media are keen to convince you only matters to middle class people and dotcom millionaires, rather than being our only chance to break their information blockade and share real news with each other. Don’t believe the hype.
As for all this bullshit about how socialists shouldn’t work with wealthy capitalists, what about factory owner Jim Anderton? How many years was Sue Bradford in the Greens, a party which regularly gets their war chest and campaign teams topped up by green businesspeople in organic farming and retail, complementary medicine, herb and vitamin supplement retailers, and head shops like the Hemp Store? For that matter, what about Labour and the massive corporate funding they get, yet here we all are cheerleading for a Labour-led government?
Like Aaron says, parliamentary politics is about compromise. Sue and the marxists will come around. If they walk away, where would they go, back to their ultraleft comrades in other tiny marxist and anarchist sects, who told them that dabbling in social democracy was a sell-out anyway? They will accomplish a lot more if they stay in Mana, and balance out any timid moderates in the IP who may try to blunt Mana’s teeth.
I can only recommend people do some thorough research on Kim Schmitz, now also known as Kim Dotcom, before seriously giving him the credit some do, and thus supporting Mana getting seriously involved with the man.
Here is a media report from Kieler Nachrichten, which is in German, I am afraid, hence you need a translator to understand it:
http://www.kn-online.de/Lokales/Ploen/Weltweiter-Wirbel-um-Kieler-Hochstapler-Kim-Schmitz
It states though that he has been “convenient” with honesty at various times, and that he was having “behavioural issues” as a youth, and was not shy of “dobbing in” even his mates, to get somewhere. He is clearly described as a “con man” by the paper of the city where he was born.
A must read article:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/01/mega-man-the-bizarre-rise-and-sudden-downfall-of-kim-dotcom/
Again translation required:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/panorama/aus-aller-welt/neue-biografie-kim-dotcom-hatte-eine-harte-kindheit/9117648.html
According to that article David Fisher from the NZ Herald wrote a biography on Kim Dotcom, claiming he had an alcoholic father who beat his wife (mother). One should perhaps seek her comments re this claim.
Also worth reading:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/21/kim-dotcom_n_1221586.html
Quote:
“But in 2002, he was convicted in what was then the largest insider-trading case in German history.
Prosecutors said Schmitz bought shares in an online business and drove up the share price by announcing plans to invest millions to rescue the company from insolvency. After selling his shares for a profit, he fled to Thailand, was arrested and deported.
A Munich court sentenced the then 28-year-old to 20 months probation and a 100,000-euro fine.
After his conviction, Schmitz disappeared from public view, reappearing a couple of years ago in New Zealand, having legally changed his name to Dotcom.
He and his family moved into a multimillion dollar mansion outside Auckland and were granted residency after promising to invest at least NZ$10 million ($8 million) in New Zealand.”
Now we all believe people can reform and move away from past wrong behaviour. But is it not justified to question the motiviations of this man, being so desperate to get public approval here, by even considering a political alliance with a left wing party, which has little in common with his own personal beliefs and ambitions.
The details of the embezzlement/insider trading is as such:
He bought 350,000 euros worth of shares.
He publicly announced that he was going to invest 50m euros into the company.
Investors bought back into the struggling company.
Dotcom didn’t invest. He sold his shares for 1.5m euros.
This was not like his “youthful follies” either (11 counts of computer hacking, 10 counts of data espionage, other counts of minor crimes including handling stolen goods). Dotcom was 27 at the time. Furthermore, only two to three years later, he was convicted again in Hong Kong for failing to disclose shareholdings.
That’s why I’m very skeptical of this alliance.
Hi Marc
Could you please post the name and address of the organisation that hands out that press release? I’ve seen it before, almost verbatim, but am not sure if I should contact ACT or NAct, or maybe the PM’s office, for any further material that may be available.
While the material may or may not be true, it would help to let us know who you are working for.
Ovicula – this has NOTHING to do with ACT, Nats or others, they would usually defend a Mr Dotcom, if he was voting for them or sponsoring them. This is about a wide range of media and other reports, and I was actually living in Germany at the time, when Kim Schmitz was at certain talk shows, also told to be the internet professional of the year or so, but still also facing legal challenges or being convicted.
His showing there was anything but convincing and heroic, he left his home country because of the legal and tax issues, and hence he is here now, in one of the most lenient countries, when it comes to taxation and income related issues. It is really very ironic, that one Mana Party courts him now, to get more votes. Why does Hone then not join the ACT Party?
What I think your very basic analysis shows Marc – you were quoting wikipedia right? – What I think your very basic analysis shows Marc is a total failure to appreciate what KDC has gone through. I would imagine if 70 armed paramilitary Police kicked in your front doors and terrorised your family based on illegal spying by the GCSB in a move that was set up by the NZ Government, you would have a very different appreciation of how the state interacts with the individual.
You are quoting wikipedia? I think what your basic analysis fails to comprehend Marc is why KDC was let into NZ in the first place. Your conclusion seems to be he was rich and so he got in, I think when we see what was the real reason for his entry into NZ you will be ignoring this was posted.
I would suggest his illegal treatment at the hands of the State and the violent manner in which he was arrested with 70 armed paramilitary police puts him in a place where he has far more in common with a left wing party than a right wing party.
What amuses me most about this post is your need to delve into KDCs history, but none, NONE of the recent history. You conveniently ignore the most crucial recent history event which has radicalised him. Why is that?
A real socialist, yeah right, and a man for the underdog like Maori:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzuGrK-ZFA8
Right, so when 70 armed paramilitary police broke into his home and terrorised him and his family and took his assets using illegal spying intel via a collusion between the NZ Government and the US to entrap KDC here, that didn’t impact his philosophical world view at all? That’s your big conclusion is it?
Martyn – On the treatment that Dotcom received at the hands of the NZ police, SIS and GCSB I agree with you, that he got treated like crap, and that deserves firm criticism of the authorities and the government in charge. On that issue I have sympathy with Dotcom, and his familiy, but there have regrettably been some past activities that he got involved in, which I find hard to explain away as youthful folly or so, as some try to see it.
I have a lot of time for Snowden, for Wikileaks and the likes, but for me Dotcom does not quite fit in that well, when attacking the NSA and other spy agencies, who are up to stuff we can all condemn and attack.
A lot of the info on Kim Dotcom has been around for years, but in New Zealand few know about it. That has disturbed me a fair bit. But apart from all that, we will see how it will all develop in the end.
Hi Marc,
I wonder though can we not treat this as a potentially temporary alliance between two minor players that can just as easily diverge (or at least state their intention to do so if issues of ideology arise) post the election. It is about getting rid of Key first and foremost.
It does seem that the I.P. may be able to attract a previously dis-enfranchised youth vote.
At this level of consideration is it such a dreadful thing, could it work.
As the Greens and apparently also a NZ version of a pirate party have already much in their programs that the Internet Party has announced as policy, I feel the better bet to get rid of this government is to vote Greens. Push them over 15 percent, and let Labour finally come and deliver some sensible, good policies, and then get enough votes, then we have all we need. I cannot see the IP gaining all that much traction, they have not even got candidates yet.
Even if they go with Mana, I doubt that their votes will be the crucial ones that make the difference in the end. Most in public will be turned off thinking a new government will consist of more than two or even three parties in any kind of arrangement. The majority want stability.
While I have access to a lot of info, I cannot read the fortune yet, so we will have to see whether the IP will catch on with voters. There were not that many young ones at the party outside the Coatesville mansion, while the goal is supposed to be to get that undecided, disillusioned young voter group.
Mana have given themselves a month to discuss and decide, so it is all still in the air anyway.
Ok KDC is very, very rich. (Is some of his money still locked away?). He’s had/has? a playboy lifestyle and he’s really pissed Hollywood off and some of the stock market/corporations – people who make money out of rumour and speculation (sound familiar, know anyone who did this?) But hey, wouldn’t it be good to have inside knowledge and make lots of money aye?
Perhaps as he said, he should have told lies to the world eg weapons of mass destruction, chemical poisoning in Syria (no they haven’t found anything), caused unnecessary wars, de-stabilised democratically, elected socialist governments, sent drones to kill innocent people, supported the military industrial complex $$$, by starting wars, been involved in banks that caused the 2008 world economic downturn through greedy and unethical, if not down right illegal practice, who were then bailed out by tax payers to the tune of trillions of dollars because they are ‘too big to fail’. Then I guess he could be glorified by the MSM and made president of the United States of America.
News flash, KDC is never going to be socialist, and he’s no Saint Mahatma Ghandi. And then there’s the news media who have already made up their minds about Mana ‘dumbness’ and KDC greed and dirty deals. Tova O’Brien – aren’t dirty deals done in the back-room, motel rooms or over a cup of tea? And Adam Bennett: “Talks over tie-up with Mana set to drag on” New Zealand Herald - 2 days ago when ‘Open and frank discussion’ could have been the headline instead. Mana are no doubt looking at the big picture (haha) and thinking about ‘how will we use him’ and of course vice versa. Another newsflash: We all know what KDC is, what he’s done and what’s been done to him. So isn’t it better that it’s out in the open and Mana can get on with using him. And even if it doesn’t work out, can’t do worse than the current situation.
(PS don’t you hate it when you get the anti spam test wrong!)
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