The crisis in relations between Indonesia and Australia is now affecting its economic relations, following the suspension of military and police cooperation.
Tony Abbott doesn’t seem to understand that the world is changing and Australia can longer simply push around South East Asian nations, and spy on them at will. How would have Tony Abbott have reacted if the boot had been on the other foot, and Indonesia had been listening to his confidential phone conversations (or those of his predecessors)?
Australia may think that, as America’s “deputy sheriff” in our region, it has a free hand to spy on anyone, and doesn’t need to apologise when caught. But as America has found out already, from both Germany and Brazil, spying on the leaders of friendly countries is not risk free. The Anglo-American alliance (supported by Australia, Canada and New Zealand) is not as powerful as it thought it was.
Last Tuesday, I wrote the following letter to Prime Minister Key, asking him to be proactive, given that it is probably only a matter of time before the Snowden papers expose New Zealand’s spying on friendly governments in South East Asia and the South Pacific. Clearly, the Waihopai satellite communications interception station does such spying, with the information obtained (including on Indonesian communications) being passed on to the American and Australian governments. Do we really want our relations with South East Asia and Pacific Island governments damaged in the same way we see happening to Australia?
Letter to Prime Minister John Key
Dear John,
I am writing to ask you to be proactive regarding the issues posed by the revelation that Australia has been spying on the phone calls of the Indonesian president and other Indonesian leaders. The Indonesian government is furious and has called back its Ambassador from Australia. Relations between Australia and Indonesia are at a low ebb.
This clearly has implications for New Zealand’s relations with Indonesia and other Asia/Pacific states. New Zealand is a member of the Five Eyes network and at least three of its members have now upset friendly governments through spying on their leaders. The Brazilian president Dilma Rousseff cancelled a visit to Washington when it was exposed that the the US National Security Agency had been intercepting her telephone calls. American and British relations with Europe have suffered in the wake of revelations that the NSA and the British GCHQ have spied on European governments, even to the extent of spying on Angela Merkel’s cell-phone.
Inevitably, governments in our region will soon be asking whether New Zealand, as a Five Eyes member, is spying on them, or helping Australia to do so. It is no secret that that the Waihopai spy station conducts mass interception of international phone calls passing through communications satellites located over the Pacific – and that information about these calls is passed onto New Zealand’s Five Eyes partners. It seems likely, from what has been said over the years, that New Zealand does target the communications of Pacific Island leaders to gain political and economic intelligence.
The understandably hostile Indonesian response to the spying on its President shows the huge downside of such political spying. It is both morally repugnant and disruptive or normal bilateral relations between friendly nations. It is hard to see much benefit from such spying when governments in our region are fairly open about their intentions.
New Zealand can learn from Tony Abbott what not to do. Abbott’s response further enraged Indonesia because he wouldn’t even comment on the evidence, let alone apologise to Indonesia. Instead he said that “all governments gather [such] information”. Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa responded to Abbott’s justification by saying “I have news for you. We don’t do it.”
I would suggest that instead of waiting for proof in the Snowden documents that the GCSB has spied on the communications of other governments, or helped Australia to do so, that the Prime Minister be proactive and issue a statement of clarification. You could then announce an independent inquiry into the role of the GCSB, its participation in the Five Eyes, and whether its current operations are hurting more than helping New Zealand’s interests.
What is the benefit of being part of the Five Eyes if it has the potential to upset every government in South East Asia and the Pacific Islands, none of whom appear to be interested in intercepting in our government communications?
Yours sincerely,
Keith Locke
Care to explain why NZ shouldn’t be looking to spy on our Pacific Nations and Indonesia? Given Chinese moves in the region and the potential for security threats from Indonesia (e.g. Bali bombings and West Papau) I’d suggest it is eminently sensible for our intelligence services collecting information from these nations.
What a miss mash of self serving twaddle, as even with Waihopai we’ve managed to not pick up something useful during the Bali bombings. Because you know spying on the TNI, POLRI, and Indonesian government did not give us a look into a 3rd party terrorist cell/group.
I do love the Non sequitur that because we’re dog like joining in on US anti China moves that spying on Indonesia it helpful to getting them to side with us against China. Hey pissing off third parties in a regional conflict always works on getting them to be friendly to “our side”.
As Abbot has stated they should never apologise for taking any steps to protect their national interests, I’m sure you’re fine with the BAKIN routinely assassinating NZ and Aussie nationals in and out of country on the off chance they’re spies.
All fair amongst mates eh?
It shows how out of date I am as it seems BAKIN has become BIN: Badan Intelijen Negara.
Interestingly it’s (re) formation and new focus on external threats (and technology/signals intelligence) is in direct response to Aussie and US activities in West papua last decade.
Indonesian intelligence services have focused on external threats as opposed to BAKIN’s (New Order) focused internal threats in direct reaction to our allies actions against them.
Snowden’s revelations have shown that the Indonesian governments concerns with Australia and US were not chimera’s. So now we all know Indonesia is an enemy of english speaking colonies . . .
Bugger off to Jakarta and listen outside the President’s window if you’re so worried about it. Or maybe hide in a malarial swamp in West Papua and send back weekly reports. Put your money where your mouth is.
I did , I have operational service medals from my time OHMS on deployment in a place now called timor leste. I also had malaria from serving there and a war pension due to it and PTSD, so you know you can bugger yourself. If you’re a tax payer just think of me taking your money, mate.
Of course that’s entirely irrelevant as the problem is not with your little fantasy of men lurking outside windows. It’s the issue of massive wide spread signals intelligence conducted against our allies (including the internet) that surprise is considered not on by our “allies.”
Did you not note the issue that US/UK is having with Germany/Brazil or now Australia with Indonesia?
If you look at the layout of the comments, you will see that I was directing mine at Gooseman. I hope you weren’t any sort of intelligence analyst, Bastables, because that one should have been very easy to figure out.
Also, I could have been clearer by including Gooseman’s name in my post. Sorry about that.
Care to explain why we should?
And would you be ok with Indonesia, China, and Uncle Tom Cobbly spying on us?
And can I spy on you?
Oh, the ignorance of this comment…
The Bali bombing was carried out by a terrorist group – not the Indonesian government. So Australia was spying on the wrong target.
But surely you knew that already?!
“Chinese moves in our region”?? So you’re opposed to trading with China? Excellent. No more cheap Chinese-made imports and instead we can start to rebuild our own manufacturing and clothing sector.
??
You still haven’t explained why.
And by the way, the Indonesian invasion of East Timor in December 1975 was wholly supported by countries like New Zealand.
Oh puh-leease, your cold-war rhetoric is several decades late. Do you ever take the time to actually look into these issues?
Just don’t forget, if we can spy on them, they have the same moral right to spy on us.
It depends on whether you see countries like China, Indonesia, Tonga, etc. as nations you want to maintain friendly relations with. The reaction of Indonesia to the spying on its leaders is fully justified. Stopping criminal actions (like the Bali bombing) is best done through friendly cooperation between the Police forces of countries in the region, which Australia has just made more difficult by spying on President Yudhoyono.
Every country is “collecting information” on other countries to be well informed. But most other countries are happy for this to be through public source material, media reports, diplomatic discussions, etc. Covert spying on the leaders of other countries in our region is both wrong and clearly counterproductive – as Australia has found out.
Most countries would carry out some form of covert information gathering. Whether it is wrong or not is open to interpretation. Spying isn’t against any international convention that I am aware of, even spying on one’s friends and allies. It only becomes an issue if the nation being spied upon is made aware of it. However this would be no different to if a nation decided to nationalise some foreign controlled asset or slap some trade sanction on another country’s products.
My limited understanding of the original “Five Eyes” document was that an agreement was reached precluding any of the nations spying on any of the others citizens, Snowden’s releases show this agreement has been violated.
Spying/espionage is wrong, it is not open to interpretation as it is carried out in a clandestine manner because it is unwelcome and illegal.
Do you think it’s legal for anyone to tap members of the Indonesian government? Because they certainly do not think it’s legal at all.
Again if this wide spread sig int was carrie rout by everyone why did the Indonesian intelligence services change over to BIN with a focus on external threats due Aussie and US interference in Timor and west papua. There is a time line of reaction here which indicates that Indonesia had to start turning against “us” in reaction to our espionage.
Crosby’s action indicate the usual English speaking colonies inherent racism when dealing with our so called allies http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/21/mark-textor-apologises-tweets-fury-indonesian-media
Asians/browns they’re not really people right, not real countries or allies or friends.
Australia is in breach of the new Lombok agreement with Indonesia
ARTICLE 2
PRINCIPLES
In their relations with one another, the Parties shall be guided by the following fundamental principles, consistent with the Charter of the United Nations,
2. Mutual respect and support for the sovereignty, territorial integrity, national unity and political independence of each other, and also non-interference in the internal affairs of one another;
http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/indonesia/ind-aus-sec06.html
Another point is that SBY the current Indonesian President was the head of Menkopolkam the main interlocutor for Indonesian co-operation with Aust and USA concerning the Bali bombings. In 2002 when Megawati was “too busy” to attend the Bali bombings 12 month commemoration it was the current President then Menkopolkam Minister SBY who represented the Indonesian Government and gave the deeply moving speech.
During 2005 Nais earthquake relief effort it was SBY as president that gave medals of valour to Aussie Defence force personal (9 deceased 2 wounded) involved in a Sea King crash.
The current president was one of the leading lights in closer relations with Australia, he just got publicly fucked over by his so called mates. It’s not open to interpretation he’s been personally and diplomatically screwed by his association with a fair weather ally.
Does that make it right?
Would you use the same justification for things that you disagree with?
Once upon a time, most countries had state owned electricity utilities. Did you support a state-owned power sector on that basis?
I suspect not.
Ah, the old Libertarian philosophy that if it ain’t illegal, it’s ok to do it? So is it ok for someone to ask if they can fuck your wife or daughter? After all, it’s not against any international convention that I am aware of…
The key part of covert intelligence gathering is that it is covert. As soon as the actions are known it becomes a problem but up until that time most, (if not all), major nations, (including many of the ones complaining about being targetted now), would engage in it at some stage. A more apt comparision would be some sleazy guy attempting to hit on your daughter in a nightclub. You would be furious if you saw it but if you don’t know about it you are none the wiser.
BTW I am not blaming the Indonesian Government for the Bali Bombings. I am using it to illustrate that their are significant security threats to Australian citizens emanating from that country that means Australia should have an interest in collecting both covert and overt intelligence from multiple sources.
John Key only answers to/is willing to listen to, the United States.
“During the 2013 NSA leaks Internet spying scandal, the surveillance agencies of the “Five Eyes” have been accused of intentionally spying on one another’s citizens and willingly sharing the collected information with each other, allegedly circumventing laws preventing each agency from spying on its own citizens”. (from Wikipedia)
Key will do whatever the seppos tell him to do. He has no concept of Aotearoa as a sovereign nation which has any interests separate from American interests. More worryingly, as detailed by Nicky Hager, neither do our spy agencies. Therefore, even if a future Labour/Greens/Mana government wanted to stop this sort of spying, the spooks would keep doing it. The only way to stop it is to get rid of the agencies and, if shown to be necessary, rebuild our own. Nobody who has studied at Ivy League universities or received a Fulbright Scholarship should be allowed any participation whatsoever, which would rule out many in Labour. These institutions have taken over from Rhodes Scholarships in preparing satraps to do the Imperial bidding.
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