The selection of a gay nightclub in Orlando is an assault on the very freedoms a liberal progressive modern society strives for. It angers in a unique way, the premeditated sophistication to understand how such an attack would resonate within the culture.
This is the danger of home grown terrorism. It understands the culture and knows how to hurt it the most.
Before we allow that anger to swell into something ugly, let’s remind ourselves that it was guns and hate that killed 50 and wounded 53 in Orlando last night. Before we start trying to work out who to bomb in retaliation, perhaps we need to pause and think because this type of mass killing is far more fuelled by ease of purchasing guns that can kill with huge speed and alienation that spawns hate.
Sure it’s easier to drop a bomb and blame an entire religion, but it’s that whole dropping of bombs for justice that is kinda fuelling this sort of thing in the first place.
We can not allow our anger in Orlando to warp a terrible situation into a worse one. We must strive for peace and prosperity for all, not never ending conflict. This hateful self mutilation of each other driven by fear, injustice, anger, spite and righteous grievance deforms and redefines our humanity into something ugly and beneath our evolution. If we are to find the common bond of human experience in each one of us, we must start now.
I see no connection between anyone’s bombs and this incident.
The killer was a US resident who, according skimpy initial press reports, was incensed by seeing two men kissing and ran amok.
This gets to the nub of the problem of Islamic terrorism. He wasn’t an infiltrating terrorist from the middle east. He was a just a typical Muslim whose head was filled with the Medieval intolerance and hate that this cult spreads.
As regards the gun issue, these can be obtained in any country if the terrorist is determined enough, but if he can’t get a gun he could do as much damage by any number of alternative means – eg the Boston marathon bombers and the London underground bombers .
Yes, and the “no guns in bars” law (that literally ZERO criminals care about) in Florida sure was super effective at making sure no one could shoot back.
Well said, sir. It’s no good pretending that the intolerance of Islamis teachings toward LGBTI people wasn’t a cause (as indeed were insane gun laws). It’s like saying the Crusades weren’t the fault of the Catholic Church, just a few extremist knights.
Intolerance of LGBTI people is also the cause of Christian opposition to same sex marriage, of course. While less distressing, it’s just another symptom of centuries-old superstition being adhered to as a guide for 21st century life. The sooner we’re rid of it all, the better.
You can’t even connect one end of a ruler to the other. You obviously do not know much about afghan males if you think two men kissing offends them. The one who actual mentioned ISIS was White House officials looking for a rise out of the idiot class such as yourself.
What are you on about?
Sam: “You obviously do not know much about afghan males if you think two men kissing offends them.”
According to this young man’s father, that’s exactly the thing at which he took offence. Though in the comments I’ve seen, the father made no mention of Muslim adjurations to kill gays; that may have been glossed, of course.
He was a regular at the bar he shot up so. Yeah
Andrew, do you hold the same belief for all extremists, regardless of religion?
6 modern-day Christian terrorist groups our media conveniently ignores
Christian terrorism is a bigger threat to U.S. freedom than Islamic extremism
Remembering John Salvi and the Brookline Clinic Shootings
And let’s not pass over the “Troubles” in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants.
This isn’t about which religion is worse. All religions attract their share of nutters – extremists who express their internalised anger under the cloak of belief.
If all “typical Muslims whose heads were filled with the Medieval intolerance and hate that this cult spreads” as you profess, then 3.3 million muslims in the USA should theoretically be fighting a nation-wide insurrection in that country.
No such war exists outside of your head.
As for your extraordinary statement that guns can be “obtained in any country if the terrorist is determined enough” misses the point utterly: why make it easier for a terrorist? Or any disturbed individual?
The shooters at Columbine, Sandy Hook, Century movie theatre all obtained their weapons legally (or took them from family members) and went on their killing spree.
The question for all quasi-libertarians is; why the hell make it easier for a nutcase to acquire a weapon so they can destroy countless lives? What on earth is in your psyche that justifies such a belief?
Because I’ll tell you this for free. The only thing crazier than the nutters and extremists who go on shooting rampages is the bizarre belief that lethal weapons should be freely available to anyone who can buy one. That really is insanity.
“This isn’t about which religion is worse.”
Yet you made it so by using the “Christians do it too” line. (PS your links are broken).
“All religions attract their share of nutters – extremists who express their internalised anger under the cloak of belief.”
Yes, but other religions don’t seem to attract anywhere near as many as Islam. In fact you’d struggle to evidence any recent mass terrorism by Christians in the sense we have seen from Muslims.
maninthemiddle – you’re referring to a handful of extremists (in the West) out of millions of muslims.
Over-reacting much?
You’d have more chance of being hit by lightening.
Or is this an opportunity to indulge in a spot of closet-racism?
You’re still 9 times more likely to be shot by police than terrorists in the States.
Must be the guns.
Generally I have found labelling someone a racist is simply a way of shutting down debate. So let’s look at some facts.
The proportion of muslims who are radicalised is not a ‘handful’ of muslims. It has been estimated by various sources at between 7% and 40% of all muslims globally. Recent research has shown the following:
France – “a full 16% of French people have positive attitudes toward ISIS. That includes 27% of French between the ages of 18-24.”
Britain – “40% of British Muslims wanted shariah law in the United Kingdom, and that 20% backed the 7/7 bombers.”
Pakistan – “After the killing of Osama Bin Laden, the Gilani Foundation did a poll of Pakistanis and found that 51% of them grieved for the terrorist mastermind, with 44% of them stating that he was a martyr.”
Morocco – A 2009 poll showed that 68% of Moroccans approved of terrorist attacks on US troops in Iraq; 61% backed attacks on American troops in Afghanistan as of 2006. 76% said they wanted strict sharia law in every Islamic country.
You can read the rest at https://winteryknight.com/2015/11/18/what-percentage-of-muslims-approve-of-radical-islam-and-terrorism/.
BTW…here’s a list of Islamic terror attacks since 1983 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks. I’d challenge you to look the relatives of these people in the eye and talk about lightening strikes.
What MANINTHEMIDDLE says is the whole issue in a nutshell. We HAVE to do religious profiling on this issue simply because their is no religion on this planet that is more prone to radicalisation than Islam. You can wince and cringe as much as you want, but it just is what it is. There is no “New Testament” in Islam that waters down THEIR intolerance to all the sort of liberties the West enjoys.
Jeezus, you’ve linked to a conservative fundamentalist Christian blogsite to prove your case against fundamentalist Islamic groups?!
“…Integrating Christian faith and knowledge in the public square”
Do you not see the jaw-dropping irony of what you’ve done?!
No… I suppose you wouldn’t.
By the way, the Christian blogsite states that “links to polls removed”. So the ‘polls’ are worthless.
Frank you destroyed your credibility above the moment you implied “closet racism”. Is it any wonder the Left cant agree when debating any issue runs the risk of labeling as “racist” or “anti gay” etc. Theres a culture of lingual absolutism over here that makes it so bloody obvious why the Left gains no traction. Any good points you make get lost in the adversarial approach.
Nick J, it IS racism. Frank is right.. Right wingers can try to dress it up as “concern” for women and LGBT rights, but it’s closet racism pure and simple.
The fact that so many right wingers jump on this issue in the name of feminism and LGBT rights is sickening.
The next time Key tugs on the pony tail of a woman or National MP is accused of sexism, let’s see how many so-called “supporters” of feminism rear their heads up to condemn it.
I bet you you we’ll never see the names on this page associated with such an issue.
Says who? Do a deconstruct and prove it with empirical facts and logic.
Islam is not a race, so it cannot be racism.
The links to the polls are not removed, I’m not sure why you make such a basic error. I’ll make it simple and list the links individually that I found simply by ‘clicking’ on them:
France
http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795
Britain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
Pakistan
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
The rest are all there as well, so your response is either lazy or dishonest.
R u scared?
Your problem is that you have to face the that the world has more people in it than white hetro males.
So? I celebrate that diversity. Until they start to kill us.
Who’s they? And I’m pretty sure Clinton kicked of Iraq mrk2.5 herself so thank you for your opinion
Maninthemiddle – the Winteryknight blogsite stated that “links to polls removed”.
You need to learn to read.
All you have to do is click on the links to see they haven’t been removed. Do you have comment about the links?
You need to dig a bit deeper.
That’s called a conspiracy theory. You’ll have to do better than that sunshine
Man In The Middle, D’Esterre, and others. Your support for LGBT and feminist issues is appreciated.
I just wish you right-wingers would be equally supportive at other times, especially here in New Zealand, and not just when it’s an opportunity to demonise another ethnic group,.
When former Malaysian diplomat, Muhammad Rizalman bin Islmail attacked Tania Billingsley at her flat in May 2014, and she went public about it, the scorn heaped on her by the Right was obscene. She was basically dismissed as a liar and manipulative “whore” by right wing supporters of this rotten government.
So I would take your support for feminist/LGBT issues more seriously if I saw it expressed at other times and not just when it suited you for obviously racist reasons.
“Your support for LGBT and feminist issues is appreciated.”
Please don’t put me on that train. I support freedom for all, not special privilege.
Yo, MANINTHEMIDDLE, I realise you right-wingers aren’t the brightest stars in the political constellation, but even someone like you must know that most terrorist acts in the US have been caused by home-grown nutters.
But that’s not your point is it? Your point is that your using the Orlando killings as a racist attack on all muslims.
Did you have the same comments when the white kids shot up Columbine? Sandy Hook? What about the white supremacists, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, who blew up the Oklahoma Federal Building in 1995???
But that’s not your issue, is it? Your thing is to engage in racist sledging of muslims. Maybe that’s because your a racist?
islam is not a race. Stop with the labels and debate the issues.
Frank Macskasy: “And let’s not pass over the “Troubles” in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants.”
Just stop that already! You are wrong: the conflict in the six counties was political, not sectarian. Do not try and conflate it with Islamist terrorism, or with sectarian conflict between various branches of Islam.
D’Esterre, but Frank is right, it WAS a struggle between Catholics and the Protestants. Are you seriously trying to re-write history?
The struggles in Northern Ireland may have been political, but it was framed in religious sectarianism.
Just as extremist Islam is framing it’s political objectives in religious terms.
You are the one being disingenuous here, not Frank.
Priss: “Frank is right, it WAS a struggle between Catholics and the Protestants.”
No. That’s what it looked like, because the nationalists were mostly Catholic, while the loyalists were mostly Protestant. But the conflict was – and continues to be – about the status of the six counties. Nationalists want union with the rest of Ireland, loyalists want to retain ties with Britain.
The religious difference is because the indigenous Irish were and are predominantly Catholic, while the loyalists are the descendants of the Protestant settlers.
“The struggles in Northern Ireland may have been political, but it was framed in religious sectarianism.”
No: the conflict remains political, but it wasn’t and isn’t sectarian. You and Frank are both wrong about this. Either you don’t know about the Irish conflict, or you don’t know about sectarianism, and possibly both.
Are you seriously suggesting that the likes of Mad Dog Adair and Lenny Murphy had arguments with their nationalist opponents over such abstruse issues as papal infallibility, transubstantiation and justification by faith alone, before or instead of shooting each other up?
Speaking of sectarianism, here’s an example:
https://twitter.com/LinaArabii/status/742100016723034112
That’ll give you a taste of what it’s about.
So the sectarian warfare in Northern Ireland wasn’t religious??
I think the Rev Ian Paiseley might have a thing to say about that, D’Esterre.
Then again, you’re just another of the racists who are using this terrorist carnage to attack all muslims.
Ho hum. Watch the racists crawl out of the woodwork.
Frank Macskasy: “This isn’t about which religion is worse. All religions attract their share of nutters – extremists who express their internalised anger under the cloak of belief.”
This sounds like apologism for Islam. The Orlando shooter did not have to be an extremist or a nutter; all he had to be doing was to act in accordance with mainstream Islamic belief, which mandates the killing of gays. It isn’t seen as a crime in Muslim societies which have in Sharia law the death penalty for being gay.
The trouble is, D’Esterre , that right-wingers have suddenly discovered LGBT issues in their rush to condemn militant Islam (with a strong streak of racism tossed in for good measure).
This iswn’t about support for LGBT people, this is a cloak for racism and bigotry against an entire ethnic group.
Which you seem eager to participate in, I might add.
Frank plays the racism card again. Muslims are not a race or an “ethnic group”. They are followers of a violent totalitarian ideology.
Hi Frank, answering the questions you posed:
I’m an atheist so I take a dim view of all religions. However, Islam is a bit of a special case because its intolerance has not been ameliorated by 400 years of Western reason and subsequent enlightenment. Its followers views seem not to have advanced beyond the 16th century, just about when Christianity first faced its challenges by Luther and others.
This is where the progressive left has led us astray. Having preached multiculturalism for the past couple of decades, whereby all cultures are supposedly equal, it now finds this is not actually the case – the left has welcomed the Trojan Horse through the gates!
Shooting 50 people in Florida, although terrible, is not going to bring down western civilisation. It’s just a pinprick and means chosen is largely irrelevant. The real threat to western society is not Islamic terrorists, it is the belief set of the average Muslim. Another poster below has outlined the statistics but you will find more details on the Pew Research website.
These people are now embedded in great numbers in Europe, are breeding fast and have mostly not westernised. In the coming decade we may witness a steady erosion of modern values as this growing demographic uses its growing power in the ballot box.
And there you have it, folks. Andrew’s entire argument distilled down into the most primal fear; being over-run by The Barbarian Hordes.
Ironically, since the discovery of oil in the Middle East, it is we, the West, that has over-run Arab states by installing puppet regimes or supporting repressive regimes with multi-billion dollar weapons sales.
How many folk recall that the US supported Iraq’s Saddam Hussein during the Iraq-Iran War? http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/multimedia/dynamic/00123/Rumsfeld-Saddam_123983o.jpg Yes, that’s Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam Hussein’s hand…
Andrew, so tell us please how you know for certain that the shooter was “a just a typical Muslim whose head was filled with the Medieval intolerance and hate that this cult spreads”??
It seems to me you’re making some pretty awful assumptions based on your own chauvinistic prejudices.
Do you also blame the Christian church when a fundamentalist Christian bombs an abortion clinic?
Priss: “Do you also blame the Christian church when a fundamentalist Christian bombs an abortion clinic?”
If he doesn’t, he ought to. Those bible belt churches in the US preach a pretty hard line on abortion. Come to that, so does the Catholic church, though it might draw the line at bombing…
Andrew: “He was a just a typical Muslim whose head was filled with the Medieval intolerance and hate that this cult spreads.”
Exactly so.
[D’esterre/Merrial, please use only one pseudonym in future. – ScarletMod]
Well, well, well… it seems that there is more to this than just Islamic extremism;
The shooterr’s ex-wife has stated;
Ref: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/06/12/ex-wife-orlando-shooter/85808768/
And further more, it appears there is the possibility of an element of self-revulsion in the shooter’s head;
Ref: http://nypost.com/2016/06/13/shooter-used-to-visit-orlando-gay-club-use-gay-dating-apps/
So, D’Esterre, you can ditch your racist crap. You can cease your vilification of an entire ethnic group: the guy was a nutter, not a political terrorist.
Furthermore, the United States’ lax gun laws facilitated his madness into a lethal reality.
Another blogger who doesn’t understand what racism is.
Man in the middle, I’ve seen it displayed here with the attacks on muslims. You can deny it all you like, but that’s how you’re coming acrosss.
So why don’t you repeat what his parents said? Maybe you are not aware of the chaos in the middle east caused by western actions that have created the massive refugee crisis & destroyed the economic security of its people. When you destroy the future of people they react in different ways but the majority of them want payback in some way.
As a conservative Christian I can completely condemn the killers actions on the basis that God loves sinners but hates sin. You have been listening to Trump for too long if you believe what you write about Muslims.
Quick Thinking: ” Maybe you are not aware of the chaos in the middle east caused by western actions that have created the massive refugee crisis & destroyed the economic security of its people. When you destroy the future of people they react in different ways but the majority of them want payback in some way.”
Well, clearly some people commenting here have been living under a rock somewhere; I’m not one of them though. What you’ve written here is in the nature of an apologetic. None of that explains or excuses what that young man did. Oh, and just in case you were thinking of writing more about the noble oppressed, take a look at this translated Arabic twitter page:
https://i.imgur.com/0QkDoeS.jpg
That might give you pause for thought about what you’re apparently defending.
D’Esterre, so you think that the invasion of Iraq; the civil war in Syria; the bombing of Gaza – that linking those violent events to subsequent extremism is a form of “apologism”?!
What did you expect from certain quarters in the Arab world? Hugs and kisses when the US invaded Iraq? (And under the pretext of a lie, I might add.)
I think you reveal more of your own lack of understanding and chauvinism that you realise.
“What did you expect from certain quarters in the Arab world? Hugs and kisses when the US invaded Iraq?”
That’s a remarkably limited view of history. Islamic extremism goes back to the 7th century. Modern Islamic terrorism can be traced back decades, to a time when the US was isolationist. If you want to be an apologist for terrorism, at least make an honest attempt to learn some history.
D’Esterre , explaining why people are alienated and commit acts of violence is not an “apology”, it’s insight. I trust you understand the difference??
Bigotry alone is not sufficient to understand the political and sectarian complexities of the world.
Well, D’esterre, it seems that the latest “public execution” killing seems to have put a dent in your prejudice;
“British MP fatally shot, stabbed in street attack
A British MP is dead after she was shot and stabbed during a vicious attack in her constituency.
Eyewitnesses said Jo Cox, 41, Labour MP for Batley and Spen, was left bleeding on the ground by her attacker. A 77-year-old man also suffered slight injuries.
One eyewitness told the BBC they heard her attacker shout “put Britain first” at least twice beforehand.
A 52-year-old man was arrested near Market Street, Birstall, West Yorkshire Police said. The MP holds a weekly advice surgery nearby.” http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/306584/british-mp-fatally-shot-in-street-attack
No mention of his religion. So he couldn’t have been muslim.
Because perps of public killings are only referred to by their religion if they’re muslim. Otherwise they are “disturbed individuals”. Spot the double standards.
Seems now the terrorist was gay , maybe it was jealousy seeing two males kissing ! silly statement ?,no more silly than your statements,the Koran has a passage that read, an infidel should be killed, islam’s idea of an infidel is a gay person ,not ours.
Being politically correct and goody goody wont stop the killing,its not the guns that kill its the crazy person wielding it, in a safe society no need for guns. The world is not safe right now,because previous leadership invaded middle east to profit from their resources. America is paying the price
along with the continent, who went into the EU, result, refugees of
unknown ideologies, some intent on killing people who don’t agree with their principals. When you can change their way of behaving then the world will be a better place,until then they must be stopped.Trump will do whats needed ,much better than Clinton.
“As regards the gun issue, these can be obtained in any country if the terrorist is determined enough,”
So tell us, Andrew, why you want to make it any easier for them? Are you a supporter of ISIS terrorism?
Surely if you want to deny terrorists the ability to cause carnage, you remove their access to weapons.
Unless, of cause, you’re either too dim to realise that, or, you’re a closet ISIS supporter.
The whole violence thing is so random in the United States. Orlando also saw The Voice US 2014 third place getter shot dead while signing autographs after a concert just a few days ago.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/11/us-singer-christina-grimmie-shot-outside-concert-in-florida
Ahh the left spin has started…deny anything Muslim/Islam about the shooting but decry gun control laws, yes Martyn the public will take that hook line and sinker you think? I’ll be interested if the story that he called 911 and declared alegience to ISIS, perhaps the left will go down the ‘mentally ill’ rout to excuse him so as not to mention Muslim/Islam if that chooses to be true?
We ain’t all cucks.
Yeah but you are to chicken to anything about it yourself
Its nothing to do with left or right ,you sound like Key and Clinton “others do it ,this is about the USA letting in refugees of Islamic beliefs,who want control to allow the whole world to be under Sharia law and they will kill and injure other people to get it.
Clinton (of the left) and Obama want to let anyone into USA who will cause chaos because if there is chaos the people are easier to control,(one world order anyone )?
Left and Right are just labels, its the people in governments with self interested agenda’s who are the problem.
Political correctness has gone to far. this publication is obviously against Trump because he is “right “of politics. Trump is the only one speaking any sense. Clinton has taken money for her Foundation from all or most of the eastern countries and obviously gives them favours of some sort in return,no one gives money for nothing, she takes money for “speaking” to big business on Wall st, she made $US 20million in one year,some speak!, they in turn expect favours for this money .
Clinton dosnt care about people, only money, just because polititions belong to the left,it dosnt make the philanthropics it makes them opportunists, just because polititions belong to the right it dosnt always mean they are cunning and greedy as NZ right are.
Trump puts his money where his mouth is ,Clinton puts her mouth where the money is. USA has different ideas on politics to NZ, Bernie Sanders is ridiculed for being a socialist,in NZ socialism is what created the NZ we had, and lost under National .In USA Obama has brought the country to its knees with his policies.
Time for someone like Trump to make it great again, he couldnt do worse than the left over there .NZ could do with a Trump to outsmart Key. sure loving kindness is better than guns,but it dosnt stop the millitant terrorists from doing their worst.
Point of order: Hillary is *not* of the left.
As you were.
Democrats are left as opposed to Republicans being right.
Dems are really more like a squishy centre than a left though aren’t they!
No, Im Right, you’re Not Right. Part of the problem IS the United State’s lax laws on gun ownership. If you make assault rifles legal and readily available, then surprise, surprise, any lunatic will grab one from his nearest gun fair and start blasting away.
This isn’t about Islam any more than lone nutters who bomb abortion clinics are representative of the Christian community.
You’ve got a slight problem there. ‘Christians’ generally don’t lay claim to acts of terror against abortion clinics. ‘Muslim’s’, on the other hand, seem all too willing to claim responsibility for islamic terrorism.
Which Muslims? Who? How many?
More chauvinistic generalisation masquerading as fact.
By the way, Maninthemiddle, thanks for illustrating precisely how you right-wingers hold such double standards.
Good reply PRISS
Martyn does not speak for the Left,his own opinions are expressed on this site.
This talk of racism and bigotry are more evident in islamists than westerners. The killer can let lose and slaughter 40 odd people ,if we condemn him we are racist and bigotted,what a load of over tolerant tosh .hes a killer plain and simple.
Were guns the cause of the Paris massacre, the Charlie Hebdo massacre, where assault guns are outlawed? NO, it was their fucked up death cult ideology of a religion that motivated them to do it.
I guess we better just give ISIS and other terrorism organizations a pass and blame everything on ourselves? COME OFF IT AND STOP DEFLECTING FROM THE REAL PROBLEM.
Greco, maaaaate, take a chill pill and settle the fuck down. You’re getting hysterical.
The US is awash with weapons and it’s no more a muslim problem than it was a Christian problem when Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris shot up Columbine school, killing 13 people.
Or is it only a religious problem when muslims are involved? Eh?
Until the Americans deal with the weapons flooding their society, every fanatic, nutcase, and guy with a grudge against his girlfriend or wife will be able to carry out his fantasies and slaughter at random.
This is a GUN CONTROL problem, pure and simple. Trying to turn it into a Muslim problem is just racist crap on your part.
Samwise,
+1
Amerikas constitutional right to bare arms is as stated to ‘throw off a tyrannous government’ and for self defense. I reakon we wouldnt be in the state we are now under JK had we still had the right to bare arms.! domestic terrorism bullshit.! Not even a hate crime. He chose a place he fequented so his victims would know it was he who wheeled deadly power over them. making this nothing but the egoic act of a mentally deranged individual. No need to fear Islam telling us what to do under the threat of violence, we got JK and the national party forcing extreme globalist corporatism with obsene survailance and the force of law (threat of violence). ARM the homeless sure as shit there would be no more housing crisis.
Interesting that the first two comments on this topic were from two of our resident trolls.
Been a bit of a slow day eh fellas?
Where did the hate come from Martyn?
I think even you can join a few dots and see there is actually an extreme form of religion that contributed to the murder. To deny that is to be blind to the problem and so never have a hope of addressing it.
Banning gins, knives, and water bottles will not stop the hate and neither would have giving this guy a hug. He was raised with an ideology of hate born from the interpretation of religion that was supplemented with something more extreme later in life. THAT is the problem for Orlando, Paris, Brussels, Tel Aviv, Istanbul, Sydney, and us all.
A news report I heard today said his ex-wife described him as violent and mentally ill.
Yes, with all the conviction of someone swallowing a dead rat. You could almost see the hand up her jacksie controlling the message. Must. Not. Blame. Islam.
Tell me, MikeD, do you blame Christianity when a Christian fundy bombs an abortion clinic? Or shoots a doctor or nurse who performs abortions?
Or are you just be, you know, just a wee bit racist here and exploiting the shootings just to have a crack at Muslims?
Homosexuals are having a great time in Egypt and particularly in Saudi Arabia, I hear, so fundamentalist religious belief has nothing to do with this?
Whether it was a proper terror attack or just a hate crime, I am not sure, we may know more later tonight.
Any fundamentalist of any religion is a walking time bomb, I fear, whether Christian, Muslim or whatever.
And if a person may claim to do such things as “inspired” by ISIS, that may make it a terror attack, but it sadly seems to be in fashion to ride on such madness trends.
False flag, again.
Shooter apparently employed by G4S aka SERCO. Important to remember that brain implants are commonly used by CIA for mind control.
More info coming out that this shooting well and truly planned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vv3Um-L27k
Gun controls.
I thought this event had Hillary Clinton’s fingerprints all over it: https://geopolitics.co/2016/06/13/orlando-shootings-mask-clinton-hijacking-of-california-primary/
She carries the nickname Killary for good reason.
Good grief, are you serious?
Yes, because why wouldn’t this help Hillary instead of Trump who has been harping on about Muslims since day dot of his campaign.
Well banning guns is Hillary’s only claim to ‘progressive’ political credibility. Not that I think there is anything progressive about being fervently anti-gun; Hillary doesn’t want sensible gun laws, she wants them banned. Which is funny, because the Clintons clearly found guns useful when Vince Foster needed to be gone.
If this was Hillary trying to ban guns/deflect attention wouldn’t it make sense to blame it on a redneck whiteboy from Moonshineville Alabama you could link to Trump instead of someone that can be used by the Orange one to say look how right I was?
2/10 conspiracy theory, must try harder
I’m not saying I believe that it was a Hillary plot, just laying out how this would help her more than it would help Trump, which was the subject of your post. 2/10 goalpost shifting, try harder if you wish – it concerns me not.
Hillary strategy: Do whatever is needed to deflect attention:
http://yournewswire.com/lawsuit-finds-millions-of-uncounted-bernie-sanders-ballots/
Did the founder of any other major world religion advocate for the killing of those that he found abhorent?
Meaning
Gosman – even for you, that question was about as clear as the Manawatu River after milking time…
all the things that could help stop or reduce attacks like this are generally opposed by the left.
Not true, Dave. The Left vigourously opposed the invasion of Iraq, predicated on the lie of phantom weapons of mass destruction in that country. The invasion went ahead and the remnants of Saddam’s military re-coalesced into what is now ISIS. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/23/opinion/how-saddam-hussein-gave-us-isis.html?_r=0
So your understanding of cause and effect, as usual, is lame.
The left generally oppose increased powers of the state such as intelligence gathering or, increasing powers of state agencies. Your comments about my understanding of things ” as usual, is lame” is a bit childish. I note you never comment on my posts favour the left position, not, that I seek your endorsement. and I appreciate this site allowing one to post without being subject to censorship.
Dave, Manthemiddle, Thetruth, et al; it surprises me that supposedly intelligent, mature adults (I’m assuming as such) are so readily willing to play into the hands of extremist groups such as ISIS , Al Qaeda, et al.
That is precisely where your hysterical response is leading to.
The “power” of ISIS is being eroded on a daily basis. Except for a few malcontents and disturbed individuals, they do not have the vast army of extremist muslims rising up in our streets that you lot are so fearful of.
But by your fearful reaction; your willingness to lump moderate muslims (many of whom escaped extreme ideologies in the Middle East) with extremists; your eagerness to anger and alienate moderates, you’re effectively pushing the muslim community into the eager arms of militants.
Is that really your intention? To increase the strength of ISIS by lumping all muslims in together?
Because if so, you’re doing their recruitment drive very nicely.
You’re letting your fear erode your common sense.
Yes, Dave, your comments are lame. If you don’t like the label, put more thought into your assessment of the situation. Knee-jerk hysteria will be viewed with the contempt it deserves.
As for increasing the powers of the state and intelligence-gathering. Nice play there; we’d be destroying our liberties to become a police state so you feel “safer”? Tell me why we’re fighting ISIS? Is it to preserve our way of life? In which case, why are you so eager to destroy our way of life and turn our liberal democracies into virtual police states? Isn’t that what ISIS wants? To destroy our liberal democracy?
Funny how everything you say plays into ISIS’ strategy…
“we’d be destroying our liberties to become a police”. That comment is exactly what i mean when i said all the things that could help stop or reduce attacks like this are generally opposed by the left.We will never agree, at least we can vote for whom we choose, in part I would argue because the state actually has the power that the left are so keen to dilute.
Dave, so you’re willing to give away our privacy and liberties to increase police surveillance, all because of a handful of crazed individuals??
My, my, you scare very easily.
Jeez, Dave, get a grip! One lone nutter shoots up a town in the US (hardly surprising any more with the vast availability of guns in that country) and you want to turn the country into a surveillance state?
You’re so damned easily frightened, it’s a wonder your shadow hasn’t frightened you to death.
No, i simply suggest that the left are generally more against measures that would reduce the chances such events happening, your Paranoia of the country turning into a surveillance state simply reinforces my position. We enjoy democracy here because the state uses its powers to keep us safer. I simply argue that maintaining and increasing those powers would be beneficial.
No, Dave, the Left opposed the invasion of Iraq. Had we been successful, the rise of ISIS would never have happened.
Dave, so by extending the power of the surveillance state; police; and curtailing our right to privacy, do you not think that you’ve played into the hands of the very people you fear will undermine our way of life?
Think about it for a moment.
Consider the twisted irony of your suggestion.
Dave. You got sucked into believing a surveillance state is a useful democratic tool.
“No, i simply suggest that the left are generally more against measures that would reduce the chances such events happening”
Dave, that has to be one of the dumbest things you’ve written in a while.
Tell us please what things you think the Left are “generally against”???
Please. We’re curious to know.
You have it backwards. This guy wouldn’t have shot up all these people if the FBI hadn’t investigated him unjustly twice before or the country he lives in him and his communities with contempt.
Civi’s like yourself think you know.
My impression is the shooter genuinely came to admire the extreme ISIS fundamental anti homosexual ideology.Plus anti infidel ideology too ( By comparison the Taliban execute homosexual pedophiles in Af… ). It’s incredible a boy born and raised in America could turn out this way. I believe ISIS when they say he was one of theirs. It’s on a level of medieval cruelty when people were bonfired alive for having a different religion.
Don’t get sucked in.
The guy was investigated by the FBI twice and they found no links to any terror orginisation. So are we now to believe you, a White House offical and some random sand muncher believe Omar has terrorist links. Come on and smell the bull already.
Sam, I like your style. Short, pithy, and no BS.
Anyone who thinks this is a “muslim problem” should look again; http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/
Of course this is a Muslim problem. Its about time you took a reality pill and take off your rose tinted glasses.
It’s only a “muslim” problem in your prejudice-addled brain, Thetruth. You’re either exploiting the tragedy in the US for your own racist beliefs, or, have been spooked by a handful of extremists in the West.
The truth is that extremists in the West are a tiny minority out of million of muslims who live peacefully and go about their daily business in our communities. Your hysteria and willingness to engage in chauvinistic fear-mongering would split communities and push more recruits into the depleted ranks of ISIS. I can’t believe you’re so foolish as to play their game.
Are you claiming that terrorist attacks carried out by ISIS and those sympathetic have nothing to do with Islam?
[Grego/Lora/Kera, please use only ONE pseudonym, or your welcome here will be short-lived. – ScarletMod]
Perhaps you should re-read my statements.
Greco (or whatever you call yourself), do you also blame the Christian church when a fundamentalist Christian bombs an abortion clinic?
Re, so-called “The Truth”, sop, sunshine, how do you know the guy was a radical muslim?? Even the Americans are still trying to work out what his motives were.
And tell me this, my little right-wing plebe, when Christian fundamentalists were shooting abortion doctors, did you also call it a “Christian problem”?? Well, did you???
It is a Muslim problem as much as the Klu Klux Klan is a “Christian” problem. The KKK regard themselves as devout Christians and yet they embody everything that Jesus detested.
I think you would find a similar feeling within most Muslim communities.
And before you start quoting any scriptures – the Koran was not written by Mohammed nor was the Bible written by Jesus.
Well, said Mike.
The killer’s father is known to have supported the Taleban, I heard, and called via online videos for the overthrow of the present Afghan government. He sounds like some kind of fundamentalist himself, even though he claims now to have not known that his son shared such extreme views as he apparently did (hence investigations a few years ago re certain comments the killer made to work mates).
Taleban, same as ISIS, they stone people who are outed as gays. I watched a YouTube video showing exactly that in ISIS occupied Syria not long ago, and will not link to it here, as it is too horrendous to watch.
To claim Islam has nothing to do with such homophobia and worse is a bizarre comment, I must say, of course most Muslims would not condone this kind of attack, and would also not condone violence against gays and lesbians, but the Quran does apparently not comment kindly on gays, nor does the Old Testament of the Christians and Jews.
Sadly there are still many people interpreting such scriptures literally, and believing in the old law where homosexuality is seen as very “evil”.
I feel very shocked about this attack in Orlando, extremely shocked, same as I was about the Paris attacks.
Guess where the hate came from? ISLAM.
Triss, did the hate in Columbine and Sandy Hook also come from Islam?
Did you never study history? Read up about the dark ages to find out about religious hate. There is reason to believe that Islam arrived at the right time to prevent the Roman church having total control otherwise we would all be worshiping the pope now.
Take your own advice – that’s not how history worked, or how it ever works. Europe was ruled by Popery and arbitrary government for centuries, and this system was challenged repeatedly and eventually overthrown. King Phillip the fair, the Valois, the reformation, the Dutch revolt, the Tudors, the English Civil war, the growing secularism of the Enlightenment and the French revolution, in combination with many other key events and cultural changes eroded the legitimacy which underpinned the political and cultural hegemony of the Roman church. It’s not that many of the institutions which replaced it were guiltless or in many ways better or less likely to kill people or inflict misery upon the living. Philip the Fair and Henry the Eighth didn’t see of Popery because they valued freedom, but because it was becoming possible to be observably powerful without Papal endorsement. Once this became evident, the spell was broken and the papacy declined. The Venetians outdid Rome in countless peninsula wars simply by being more devious and tactically astute.
While it is true that the western Roman and eastern Byzantine churches sought to assimilate one another, and the western church was more likely to have been the winner had Islam not appeared on the battlefields of North Africa and the Levant and complicated the situation, the idea that Rome would have become eternal through unifying medieval Christendom is hugely unlikely. No secular empire has lasted forever, despite early modern imperialism being more powerful, more globalised, and more militarily sophisticated.
The examples above show that even when the odds were in the favour of Rome and its holy imperial enforcers, rebellion occurred and often triumphed. The United Provinces defeated Spain; the parliamentary forces defeated Charles I; Napoleon defeated numerous empires before being stopped first by the Russians, and then by an Anglo-Dutch coalition in league with Prussia.
If anything, I would say that the wars in the era you speak of between the Khanates and the Caliphates saved the cultural notion of Europe from being extinguished simply by keeping both of these militarily superior entities occupied enough in the east to make further western adventurism beyond their resources, though geographic unfavourability to their ways of fighting and campaigning had much to do with this as well. The Caliphate lost to Charles Martel’s inferior force at Tours, but they fell back not because they thought that a second attack wouldn’t win, but because the further north they went, the harder it was for their means of campaigning and fighting to prevail. Likewise the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was not militarily superior to the Khanate, but their means of foraging and giving battle didn’t work in the weather and geography they encountered there. The notion that history shows Islam saved us from some kind of infinite popery is simply unsupportable.
50.
Roughly equivalent to the number of non-Americans killed directly or indirectly by Americans in the Middle East every day (or is it every hour?) in their resource wars.
Fewer than the number of children who starve to death every day as a consequence of American greed.
Far less than the number killed in the global daily road toll.
Hugely less than the number killed by American corporations every day.
And a mere pittance compared to the number who are going to die soon as a consequence of military and environmental policies promoted by America over the past 100 years.
But we’re all going to be dead by the end of 2013 anyway, so what does it matter.
Get the time-frame right, please!
Self-extinction of the human species will occur some time between 2030 and 2060, depending on the rate that humans destroy what is left of the biosphere and the rate at which positive feedbacks raise the global average temperature…….with current trends indicating the earlier rather than the later time-frame.
That is unless power-crazed Americans decide to attack Russia and China, of course, in which case it will be all over a few weeks later.
Religion and/or culture doesn’t come into it. Regardless, it’s the warped, hateful, bigoted mindset behind the trigger finger which is responsible for this kind of horror!
Donald Trump wants guilt by association.
If your brother commits a crime then you share the guilt.
There were two maniacs in the twentieth century who used this extensively – Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin.
There is another who does it today – Kim Jung Un.
I cannot see that the invasion of Iraq. caused this shooting as some have suggested.
Dave, that explains much about you.
Is it possible Frank that you have a comment about anyone that is not snide ?. The invasion of The of Iraq is no reason or excuse for a gay married man to go to a gay night club and kill over 50 civilians.
Its a simple equation. People like you make it unsafe for other people to go about there own business. It’s not upto you to tell people what to preach or how to live.
I know you like to talk tough on the internet but have you actually thrown a punch in anger. My point is a question. I quistion weather you will back up your tough talk.
I think you will find even the most moderate of Muslims are far far far to the right of the average New Zealander.
That being said has anyone seen the doco Dancing Boys of Afghanistan?
John, really? Evidence of your assertion? Or are you just being bigoted?
I think the Orlando location was nothing more than “a good spot to choose” organized by the Khazarian/Mossad thugs and Benjamin Fulford’s overview rings with a degree of truth:
http://benjaminfulford.net/
No further analysis needed except to say these thugs need to be swept up and out of Switzerland and Israel in the first lot of mass arrests and put into the awaiting FEMA camps.
Frank Macskasy, Priss and others who’ve labelled as right-wing, bigoted and racist, me and others with views counter to yours:
Best not to infer my political leanings – or my state of mind – from my comments.
Bigotry and racism are epithets that – it seems to me – commenters tend to fling about when they’re running out of counter-arguments. This sort of name-calling achieves nothing but the squelching of debate, because it shuts down heterodox opinions. For all the faults of US society, they greatly value freedom of speech; I’ll bet the debate there is vigorous in a way that many people here would find unpalatable.
That young man committed an appalling crime; whether or not he was gay, he was certainly a Muslim. We are entitled to point out Muslim beliefs about homosexuality: it’s almost certain that those views would have influenced him, the more so if he himself was gay. See this clip of a translated twitter page for a taste of what the reaction’s been in the Islamic world:
https://i.imgur.com/0QkDoeS.jpg
No way of knowing where in the world the commenters are living.
As several people have pointed out here and elsewhere, it isn’t necessary to ascribe to him mental illness or terrorist sympathies as explanations for his behaviour. Muslim views of gays are quite sufficient explanation.
Don’t describe the crusades, or the six counties conflict, as sectarian wars. They weren’t and aren’t. Try this for a taste of rabid sectarianism:
https://twitter.com/LinaArabii/status/742100016723034112
If you’ve ever wondered why the Israelis complain so much about al-Jazeera, there you have some evidence.
Right now, raising the many crimes of the West in the middle East in the same breath as the Orlando shootings looks like you’re attempting to justify what he did, even though that surely isn’t your intention. I’m aware that many of you see this as explanation and providing insight; fair enough, but to many of us, it looks like apologetic. You’re free to say those things, of course; but by the same token, we are also free to point out that Muslim views about gays are very pernicious, and likely have contributed in no small measure to this terrible crime.
I’m well aware of the awful toll of gun crime in the US: I don’t live under a rock. But – lest it’s seen as apologetic – I hesitate to adduce any of that in explanation. Except perhaps the San Bernardino shootings, which probably came from the same wellspring of Muslim perspective.
[D’esterre/Merrial, please use only one pseudonym in future. – ScarletMod]
I use the terms bigotry and racism quite deliberately, D’Esterre.
On the one hand, you reject that the Northern Ireland conflict between Catholics and Protestants; “Don’t describe the crusades, or the six counties conflict, as sectarian wars. They weren’t and aren’t.”
But on the other hand, you’re quite fine pointing the finger at extremism in other religious groups (in this case Islam).
And ignore point blank the violent extremism of fundamental Christians who bomb abortion clinics. Or fundamental Christian groups that advocate death to gays.
You ignore that 99% of mass shooting in the USA are carried out by US citizens who do not identify as muslim, and some identify as Christian.
**edit** In fact, considering that 99% of mass shootings are carried out by non-muslim, white, male, US citizens – you really are demonising the wrong demographic.
You ignore the latest revelations that the Orlando shooter had no proven links to ISIS; was apparently mentally disturbed; and probably a closet gay with feelings of self-revulsion.
Anything that conflicts with your euro-centric chauvinism, you ignore.
But any hint of something that supports your prejudice – you latch on to; magnify; and attach significance that does not exist outside your prejudiced mind.
Your own words betray you.
I think the truth is that Frank is actually a rightie not a leftie. He poses as a leftie, puts snide comments in respect of any comments from middle NZ and purports the generalist leftie view of things as stupid, arrogant and with a passion to insult anyone and everyone, with the belief that he will turn people away from the left. You have been found out Frank, you Tory in disguise. Very cunning.
Bugger. Ya nailed me, Dave. But you left out Reptilian shape-shifting alien from Zeta Reticuli IV…
Frank, from your response, it looks to me as if that you haven’t actually read anything I’ve written.
I and others have pointed out that Islamic views of homosexuality, as evidenced in that clip, aren’t extremist: rather, they’re mainstream. In this context, Christian views are irrelevant: the shooter was Muslim.
Of course his being Muslim is of moment, given that he’d no doubt been exposed to those views during his daily life. If he was also gay, that would have caused real dissonance in his self-image. As it would for anybody in the Islamic world.
We’ve also pointed out that it isn’t necessary to characterise him as mentally unwell, or an extremist, in an attempt to explain what he did. Pernicious Islamic views of gays are explanation enough.
You accuse me of ignoring gun crime and violent Christian extremism in the US. Here’s what I said:
“I’m well aware of the awful toll of gun crime in the US: I don’t live under a rock. But – lest it’s seen as apologetic – I hesitate to adduce any of that in explanation.”
So no, I don’t ignore it: I do, however, give a reason why I don’t want to raise that issue. I don’t want to be perceived as an apologist for what that young man did. And really, in this context, what extremist Christians do to abortion clinics isn’t relevant, and I want to stick to this narrative, rather than muddy the waters by dragging in side issues.
You say: “But on the other hand, you’re quite fine pointing the finger at extremism in other religious groups (in this case Islam).”
I took issue with inaccurate descriptions of conflicts as being sectarian when they weren’t and aren’t. On the other hand, much of the contemporary conflict in the middle east is indeed sectarian: they’re fighting over which iteration of Islam should prevail. That’s sectarian.
The six counties conflict and the crusades are and were political. That doesn’t mean that some of the agents involved don’t -and didn’t – have sectarian aspirations. But the overarching motivation is and was political.
With regard to the issue of sectarianism, over the last few centuries, Christians have been systematically persecuted out of their ancient homes in the middle east, such that numbers remaining there are now very low. There’s quite a bit of information about this online, if you want to read up on it.
Stephen Franks said on RNZ a few days ago that unless this crime is seen for what it is – and we do not yet have a full picture – the response to it will be the wrong one.
The reason why you’re seen as racist, Desterre is the fact you have picked on Islam to criticize for being “anti gay”, when in fact the Catholic Church is only marginally better. So yes, you are being Islamophobic.
You point to militant Islamic extremists and ignore the militant extremists in Christianity. In fact, you pointedly trivialize the bombings of abortion clinics in the US.
As for quoting ex Act MP, Stephen Franks to justify your prejudice, well, all I can say is that you picked the wrong person. Act is hardly a paragon of moral virtue considering the legacy of their neo-liberal policies.
To the moderator: I have well-found reasons for using two “noms de guerre”. But those reasons aren’t anybody else’s business and I prefer to keep them private.
Please note that I don’t troll; nor do I name-call. I don’t call other commenters idiots (effing or otherwise), right-wingers, left-wingers, racists or bigots. Or – what is Frank’s latest effort? Here it is: “euro-centric chauvinism”. Whatever that means…
I stick to the topic, and try always to keep to issues relevant to the topic, rather than straying off down irrelevant byways. So I see no reason why my having two pseuds is an issue at all.
“I have well-found reasons for using two “noms de guerre”
Really?
Is that to give yourself self-support when others attack your racist rubbish? Having read your comments here, D’esterre, I’m not surprised Frank has challenged your views and if you think being accused of “euro-centric chauvinism” is an insult, well yes, it is. But then, I’ve read many of Frank’s posts and I can tell you he has no truck with racists.
But in your case it is well deserved. I’d use stronger language, but I think the moderator might think twice about publishing it.
D’Esterre, in your condemnation of the entire muslim faith, you wrote;
It appears that your prejudice against Muslims is misplaced, D’Esterre;
Ref: http://boingboing.net/2016/06/15/baptist-pastor-praises-orlando.html
And,
Ref: http://www.abc10.com/news/local/sacramento/sacramento-baptist-pastor-praises-orlando-massacre/243211965
And another Baptist group;
Ref: http://www.inquisitr.com/3208122/westboro-baptist-church-protests-at-funerals-for-orlando-terrorist-attack-victims-but-counter-protesters-were-there-to-meet-them/
So focusing on militant fanatics in one religious group is a bit disingenuous, when that same kind of hate can be found throughout almost every single religious grouping.
The point is that human’s who want to hate will latch on to any belief system they want, to further their prejudices.
And bigots will latch on to a small group of extremists from these groups to further their own bigotry.
“So I see no reason why my having two pseuds is an issue at all.”
Really, D’esterre?
How many of you are there on this blog? And why do you feel the need to have multiple log-ins?
By the way, I wouldn’t try it on with ScarletMod, she doesn’t tolerate bullshit from anyone.
“So I see no reason why my having two pseuds is an issue at all.”
Which is a problem in itself, D’Esterre. Sense of entitlement much??
[Dave: please address the issue at hand, and not engage in mutual-support chit-chat with others. – ScarletMod]
With the greatest of respect I thought censorship on a blog like this was more the domain of right sites. A wee bit disappointing.
Deleting spam is not censorship
🙂
Its not spam Sam, a lot of my comments are pro left, look at the housing crisis. If comments are deleted from here then this site is as bad as what they allege of mediaworks.
Harsh sam
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