Most places around the world, a flag unites – In NZ, Key is so divisive, it has managed to divide us.
I’m not voting in this first round waste of time vanity project for the Prime Minister.
$26million is an obscene price to pay when we have 305 000 kids in poverty and children being sexually and physically abused in State Care. When state tenants are freezing to death in rotting state homes, when beneficiaries can’t make ends meet and when students are studying on the breadline, participating in a project that is designed to obscure those very issues is not only ethically reprehensible, it’s doing exactly what the National Party wants you to do.
I’m no Fortunate Son.
By voting in the first round of the Flag referendum you are acquiescing not only to this vanity project, you are empowering it to obscure the real issues this country faces.
I for one refuse point blank to give the National Party that kind of power. The lower the turn out in the first round, the more pitiful Key’s mandate for change.
this has been a sad example of “manufacturing consent” from beginning to end, with the skewed process now topped by the All Black captain’s proclamation of support for guess what?–yes, the PMs (de facto All Black captain) preferred flag choice!
after the Beehive “Rubber Wool Cub” promotional gathering can mutual fellatio be far off for Richie and dear leader?
First vote, am not sure, maybe Winstons idea? or every one do their own thing (write FJK! on the paper) or just don’t bother like Martyn says and push for a low turnout
Second vote–for existing flag just to try and give the Nats a slap
one things for sure, the Nat spin machine will shortly be on full turbo boost with nitrous
all Jonkey Nact has to hope for is hoisting a new flag….but even that is flagging
( jonkey says a new flag will bring us more prosperity…?! ….why?…how?..is this a corporate brand takeover of New Zealand’s heritage in the old flag….Treaty of Waitangi partnership, legal founding contract of NZ?….and history and cultural identity?)
I would like to know how much each of his stooges on the steering Flag committee is getting for their services ( hope not in the millions)
…and I would like a business profile of each of them…so we can see who jonkey’s friends are… and what other services they have done for him
….eg what other business committees have they been on for jonkey and this government …have they served alongside Goldman Sachs representatives for example?….have they had anything to do with dodgy enterprises?…and what involvement have they had in private enterprise ?…on boards?… and how successful have they been?…have they been involved in shonkey dealings that have cost New Zealanders money?
…are they culturally sound?….do they have integrity?
….would you trust them to count your vote for keeping the old New Zealand flag?…and all the cultural and historical integrity and identity it has for New Zealanders
Chooky, one of the Flag Committee is Peter Chin, who was Mayor of Dunedin when it embarked on building the stadium and a totally unneeded Chinese Garden, which left our small city with two loss making ‘assets’ and hundreds of $millions of debts. His departure was unlamented.
These days he seems to be a professional committee man on any committee inspired by John Key. He was on the recent Waitangi Committee as far as I know.
Why I wont vote for a new flag…I want to keep the existing flag
John Key’s legacy to NZ is abysmal…and can be summed up as ASSET SALES and ripping off New Zealanders…and he wants us to smile about it and reframe it in a new flag
…all Jonkey Nact has to hope for is hoisting a new flag….but even that is flagging
( jonkey says a new flag will bring us more prosperity…?! ….why?…how?..is this a corporate brand takeover of New Zealand’s heritage in the old flag….Treaty of Waitangi partnership, legal founding contract of NZ?….and history and cultural identity?)
I would like to know how much each of his stooges on the steering Flag committee is getting for their services ( hope not in the millions)
…and I would like a business profile of each of them…so we can see who jonkey’s friends are… and what other services they have done for him
….eg what other business committees have they been on for jonkey and this government …have they served alongside Goldman Sachs representatives for example?….have they had anything to do with dodgy enterprises?…and what involvement have they had in private enterprise ?…on boards?… and how successful have they been?…have they been involved in shonkey dealings that have cost New Zealanders money?
…are they culturally sound?….do they have integrity?
….would you trust them to count your vote for keeping the old New Zealand flag?…and all the cultural and historical integrity and identity it has for New Zealanders
All opposition Parties need to state they will restore the original flag after retaking the Government benches because this process was undemocratic and only John Keys vanity idea and a gross waste of money.
They need now to make this statement to stop this Government ever discarding all standards in place currently for using the original flag emblem on all Government papers and websites and buildings.
John Key and Ritchie are best best friends!!!
Sh*t useless flag designs for $26.0 million, my dog could have come up with something better.
I’ll be defacing the first round paper, by writing “No Change” on it. The second round, I will choose the existing flag.
That said, the whole unnecessary exercise is a waste of money, which could be diverted elsewhere to more important areas, such as addressing poverty, low wages, unethical employment practices etc, all of which are causing a break down in society.
Well I sure will be expressing my preference. Not to pander to Key or National, but because I detest the union flag appearing on the flag representing my country. It’s well past it’s used – by date and I really fail to see who in NZ it represents in the 21st century.
$26m? To put it into perspective, that’s the cost of vehicles alone for EQC for 5 years and well less than their travel expense. A relative drop in the bucket.
This issue is about nation. Not left or right. The existing NZ flag WILL be history next year.
Disagree- whether we like it or not- the small part in the corner represents the crown inasmuch as it is a part of the signatory’s of the Treaty of Waitangi.
Take that away and not just New Zealand Europeans but Maori also are going to have an even harder time seeing justice done in this country. As many among the Treaty claims have to do with the historic events between those two party’s.
A republic opens us up for a despot like Key to start to do all manner of perverse acts…such as he is displaying tendencies to even now.
Particularly if he gets his way with the TTPA, he will up the ante.
The number one aim is to get rid of Key.
Stay focused and retain the flag.
Instead – write worm farms across the whole paper. Then in large letters…No .
Or even GET FUCKED.
Better yet – Pike River.
Send em a message.
Your second paragraph is interesting and you make good point. However personally I think a flag is for is all. Not just represent Maori and European who signed the treaty but all since who have come here.
And anyway not all Maori tribes signed the treaty and some tribes did so under duress. But I see your reasoning.
But honestly, let’s forget about Key in this. This is far greater and let’s face it, Key will be gone most likely on 2 years. The flag, for change or against, is for the future.
Peter said;
“But honestly, let’s forget about Key in this.”
NEVER NEVER NEVER.
Got the message?
I will burn that flag when he leaves this land and he will.
The Rockstar economy is now laying on a burned heap on the floor as he will be when everyone wakes up and finds we are heading for a depression now with no safety net of state power, water and homes to shelter our new poor.
+100 Wild Katipo
…you dont see the Brits , or the Scots or the Irish or the Welsh… or most other countries eg Israel and the USA changing their flag to accommodate new immigrants
….a flag represents history and founding culture and founding laws..otherwise you might as well rebrand every year
Truth is John Key wants to rebrand New Zealand because he wants to reframe his terrible legacy ….a legacy that consists of ASSET SALES and ripping off New Zealanders
+100 Wild Katipo…”the small part in the corner represents the crown inasmuch as it is a part of the signatory’s of the Treaty of Waitangi.
Take that away and not just New Zealand Europeans but Maori also are going to have an even harder time seeing justice done in this country…
You dont get other countries changing their flag just for new immigrants eg Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland , France, Palestine , Israel, USA , Germany, China , Japan…
The existing flag represents New Zealand’s founding legal Treaty of Waitangi document between the Maori Chiefs and the crown….and the envy of many other indigenous cultures . It also represents our New Zealand history and culture .
John Key’s legacy is of sharply increased inequality and inegalitarianism…NZ Asset Sales and the ripping off of New Zealanders …he wants to reframe and legitimise this by changing NZ’s flag and culture
ooops again repetition…because I thought the first one had disappeared into the ether never to be seen again…
You want to get rid of the Union Jack but do you want to get rid of the rest of the shit that goes with it, the Will and Harry tours, the God awful knighthoods, the Queens Councils, the Governor General?
But you are right the existing flag will be history, not because we matter but because John Key wrote the script to make it so.
Yes I want to get rid of all the forelock tugging anachronistic bs of our head of state being the Queen. Absolutely!
But no Key may have initiated this, but we write the script. Next year we decide.
I want to change the flag but I detest John Key and will vote for the present flag. Couldn’t be simplier. If Key wants A then I want B
When you have a guy like John Key who treats the nation like a bunch of idiots, says anything it takes to make a problem go away, makes it up and yes lies, who made the process of the SkyCity convention centre tendering seem like a normal Soprano’s episode, who pays off Saudi millionaires millions of taxpayer dollars for who knows why, just to name but a few, then why the hell would anyone want to participate in a process championed by a man like that?
We ultimately will have ended up with some flags that John Key and his paid entourage want!
He and the whole pathetic process cannot be trusted! And for what good anyway?
Nor will I be voting, but for Key the exercise was also about deal making and networking rewarding participants and supporters with lots of taxpayer money.
In the end its about creating a new corporate logo and like the hideous infantile Telecom/Spark thing some nameless faceless people have already decided what it will be. And Richie will dance and wave the pom poms for Johnny, whatever the new brand symbol is.
I will spoil my vote, that is the only way I can protest this authoritarian regime. This sham referendum is an insult to our democracy. Not asking for a mandate to change the flag, not at least including the current flag as an option, denies the democratic process. Whether or not we need to change is our right to decide not the dear leader’s.
The cost is also a drop in the ocean. A new flag means new passports, a new coat of arms, drivers licence, every policeman soldier customs uniform, every embassy and on and on and on. All because a prime minister with a mandate from 1/3 of registered voters thinks it’s a good idea.
For these reasons I WILL SPOIL MY VOTE
Yeah…imagine it all…all those cheap Chinese made shit replacement uniforms and emblems….
Shit Keys a real wanker , isn’t he?
Hey guys – we’ve got a wanker for pM in power.
And I ain’t no fucking fortunate son either – the wanker can get fucked.
But didn’t you know? Max is a dEEE jay!
I hate how this process has been engineered from the beginning; Malcolm Mulholland was on Breakfast this morning spouting rhetoric, and rounding off with a “it is what it is” which simultaneously opposes his previous comment of knowing that giving the public flag options increases the likely hood of a new flag…All of which ignores that there was no freakin’ mandate for ANY OF THIS! #flagtheflag #FJK
I could see the silver fern on a black background coming a mile off – in New Zealand these days you can have any colour you want – as long as it’s black (to quote Henry Ford).
Wear colour these days – especially in downtown Wellington and Auckland and you are a freak.
This Facebook post is quite interesting as it draws a link between the silver fern and the All Blacks, their sponsor AIG and John Key, arguing that corporate interests will benefit from a flag with a silver fern on it. It’s links to old news stories on AIG sponsorship of the All Blacks is interesting in itself – https://www.facebook.com/postmaninvestigates/photos/a.165377493520849.37519.165364613522137/961803800544877/?type=1
I can respect ‘I like our current flag’. I can respect ‘My grandfather served under the current flag’. I can also respect ‘so long as the queen is head of state we should have the union jack on the flag’, or ‘none of the choices appeal to me’. But “I am not voting because it is John Key’s idea” ranks right up there with ‘Billy – play with your cousin – No, she’s a girl and girls have girly germs’.
Why not? It’s one of the prime reasons that the 1997 superannuation referendum was so roundly rejected by voters (92% of 80% turnout) – it was associated with Winston Peters who was thoroughly distrusted by the vast majority of the population at the time.
If Key’s motives are not to be trusted, why should we trust his agenda for a flag change?
Ticked you both down – one because old Peters has shown through the years since Bolgers neo liberal govt hes learnt a few things and has nothing on the anti democratic subversion’s of Key , and two because the mutt commenting above you is obviously a Key supporter.
And Key is obviously a smarmy American sycophant. Nothing more.
And as for the mutt commenting above you Frank …whats his game?
Whats his angle?
What does he get out of supporting an anti democratic tick like Key , eh ?
Maybe he should go live in the USA if that’s his game, mate.
He needs to fuck off back to America if he doesn’t like it here.
And take his fake ‘ PM ‘ Key with him . We don’t need him.
The Labour Party had as one of its policies prior to the last election, the changing of the flag. If Labour had changed the flag, the result would have been a new flag. If National change the flag, the result will be a new flag. I can not see any difference between the two end results, and I can’t see how the ‘motive’ of one person who is in favour of the change in any way effects the end result.
If you are not voting because you think the whole idea is a waste of money and a distraction from other issues, that is a completely separate reason, and probably valid. But that is not the same as ‘I don’t support it because John Key supports it’.
Explain to me how the consequences of changing the flag will be detrimental and I might at least listen. But if the best you can do is “Its John Key’s idea”, then I am sorry, I am not interested.
Dude it don’t matter which fuckin’ flag wins. Any flag that wins will be forever associated with this government and all the woes that came with it.
The only flag that will not feel this effect is our current flag because it has a long and strong history of being a flag of good.
It’s the nation deciding on change not Key. There was a long winded design process and then a panel. Procedure was exhaustive and completely without corruption.
This is a democracy with a MMP system, the least corrupt and fair democracy in the world. So, like it or not this government was elected fair and square. There is no difference to the flag change process were it Labour coalition or a National one. Every registered voter can vote on this, once for a flag to go head to head and later on for a change or status quo. One thing guaranteed is that if we don’t do it it we’ll have the one like the Aussie flag for another 50 years. We’ll probably all be dead and heaven knows what a NZ government will look like, if it’ll be left or right or whether some dictator will simply impose his or hers on us.
We have choice and I choose change, can’t stand the war mongering imperialism the Union Jack represents myself
The nation is NOT deciding on changing the flag. This idea came direct from key’s mouth. As it is it’s a vanity project and the choices are hideous and not my idea of a flag, and don’t get me started on the outrageous cost (it’s not a drop in the bucket as stated by some in this thread). If it was a movement from the people of NZ and govt listened (haha) that would be great and there would be a real conversation about what we want and why we want it. I will be sticking with the current flag.
What a load of complete codswallop. If you think it was a fair evaluation that led to the four then you must be even more blinkered than your post would suggest.
Not one of the panel had flag design qualifications. They were all taken from relentlessly middle class white. Of the four final flags three are a fern and one is presumably trying to look like a koru. Of the final four three are black and white, a colour combination generally deemed unacceptable because of terrorist associations, and one is black blue and white, still in the area of the preceding. None of the four make any reference at all to the Tangata Whenua.
Only one flag exhibits three colours, red white and blue and by an absolutely sheer concidence that is Dear Leader’s choice.
There were plenty of three coloured flags in the opening submissions and plenty which demonstrated an affinity for the Tangata Whenua, but none of those made the final countdown.
The whole rotten stew was put together by political collaborators with no expertise at all and who were clearly following orders from their political masters.
It’s a fucking cynical scam not democracy.
SG, if we don’t trust the guy acting as our Prime Minister, why should we trust his motives or agenda??
I could think of at least half a dozen things that would benefit from investing $26 million.
Like I said, “I can think of better things to spend money one” is quite a different reason for not changing the flag to “I don’t agree with it because John Key supports it”. The first is rational, the second is childish.
Shall I put this in real simple terms so you don’t miss it. I hate John Key and everything he stands for. Whatever he supports I oppose. So he can stick his flag change where the sun don’t shine.
and I will put it in simple terms. Based on what you have said, if you supported something, and then John Key came out and supported it, you would change your mind and not support it. That is childish in the extreme.
Why? You haven’t provided any reason why we should trust Key and his agendas.
and I don’t plan to. I am merely commenting on the reasons given for taking the stance a lot of people here are taking. I think it is extremely childish to support something, presumably on its merits, and then to withdraw support because someone else expresses support for the same cause.
Well that’s your opinion, SG. Other people have their own motivations and on an issue like this, it often comes down to personal beliefs. Yours is no different to others, and no more or less “childish”, as you put it.
do you not think that changing your support for something because you find that someone else supports it calls into question the extent to which the initial support was genuine.
No. Just as you will support issues based on your own tribal allegiances and trust in the current PM.
I don’t seem to be able to respond to your post below Frank. But for the record, I support (or not) issues based on their merits, not based on tribal allegiances. I make my own mind up, and don’t simply support something (or not) simply because someone else does.
1000% I couldn’t have said it better Mark.
??????????????????
Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumor that writing
‘keep the current flag’ and crossing out the 4 options makes your vote informal? and then its counted? or is it just a spoiled vote and not counted… or how do I find out for sure?
I applaud the stance of not voting but it needs a ground swell to make it effective.
I suspect this is a lie. Generally if you ‘deface’ voting papers it is most certainly NOT counted.
If you deface your ballot paper, which I will certainly be doing, your vote is counted as informal. A huge informal vote would send a clear message to John Key to stick his flag where the sun don’t shine.
Not taking part could be written off as apathy.
I want a new flag, but I want it to be part of NZ becoming a republic. I’m going to write on my ballot paper: Keep the old flag, change the prime minister.
I’ll be defacing my paper with:
FJK
In huge letters in black vivid marker.
Because I’m hugely pissed off at this ridiculous waste of money. This government has it’s priorities all wrong.
26 million could employ better carers for abused young people in state care. It could literally save lives.
Or feed hungry kids so they can learn.
Or insulate and repair run down state housing.
Or or or… so many necessary things. A flag change not necessary.
Despoiling the first vote fucks up all of the proposals.
In other words rejects all of them.
And that’s the goal.
Why ?…because it shows the contempt we have for the wanker who calls himself ‘PM’ atm.
That’s why.
No, ‘despoiling’ your vote simply makes it invalid, and leaves the choice as to which flag gets pitted against the current flag to a smaller number of voters.
If people are angry about the whole thing, I think the best response is to not send in your ballot paper at all for the first referendum. If you send it back, even spoiled or invalid, it still counts as turnout. The lower the turnout, the more it looks like it really is: A John Key ego trip costing taxpayers around $26 million. I refuse to be any part of it and I urge others to do the same.
+100
Totally agree Martyn and others. This revolting round of Government PR blended with All Blacks and Flag selection is despicible propaganda. Rat face Paddy on TV3 made this the lead story and basically called it a “king hit”? on public opinion, so are we supposed to just accept that the unholy alliance of John Key and Richie McCaw have decided for us?
Hope you wiser and more activist types can come up with an idea for how we can, in a unified way, express our distain for this dispicible “manufacturing of consent”.
I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong.
A referendum should consist of a simple Yes/No question. Have not other referendums been voided due to their complicated format? Would this referendum not fall into this bracket? As a choice of four does not make a simple yes/no choice.
The final four flag designs are out and they are all commercial crap, three feature the fern which is very much like a white feather and an historic sign of cowardice and which Key wants and the other the Koru is black which historically doesn’t bode well for our flag- death/piracy etc. You have got to give it to Key, he is very pushy and gets what he wants. I don’t think the Military will be giving up their kiwi badge any time soon. The panel didn’t have a clue about flag design and it was probably the cabinet which chose the last four which figures with the result.
For sure, I will not be playing Keys game with this flag referendum.
We have had previous referendum and the National Govt choose to ignore.
So they can go and get stuffed.
The final four flag designs have been chosen and they are commercial crap. Three feature the silver fern which is a replica of the white feather which historically was a sign of cowardice in wartime, and which Key has wanted all the time, the other the Koru is black which is completely unsuitable for a national flag with its connotations of piracy/death etc. A fern will win the day. The military will not want to be giving up their kiwi badge any time soon. The designs are so bland and commercial I am sure the cabinet chose the final four – it figures with how advertorial and brand like they are – I am surprised a rugby ball isn’t featured in one of the final four.
There seems to be an awful lot of confusion in this thread.
The vote/referendum for the flag is in 2016.
The vote for John Key and National is in 2017.
The two are a little different. Don’t like it well that’s democracy. I can see many on this site clearly don’t believe in this concept unless they get their own way but that’s the system we have and it’s certainly superior to many of the alternatives. And please, no idiotic answers about National being a minority government. That’s juvenile student sociology 1st year nonsense.
This is the system we have. Don’t like it well plenty room elsewhere.
And it’s my democratic right to record a non vote, or vote of no confidence in this “referendum” by despoiling my voting paper.
I’ll be doing this on the grounds that in my opinion it’s a waste of public money.
26 million could be used to give safety to abused kids in state care, with more or better trained social workers or more or better trained foster care.
26 million could feed a whole lot of hungry kids, who I saw when I taught in South Auckland. If they aren’t hungry they can learn.
26 million could help DoC better manage pest control with qualified experienced staff, not public private partnerships that end up in 4 dead Takahe.
I can think of so many things that money would be way better spent on.
A flag change… unnecessary. And I’m really pissed off about it. And that’s my democratic right.
Nailed it, Lara.
I will be ‘spoiling’ my first ballot with my own statement, and casting my second ballot to maintain the status quo.
My vote, my choice.
Yeah, won’t be voting either this time, but will vote to keep the old one in March. Issues actually of concern to many NZers that imo should have been put to a referendum are strangely never addressed – even when they could have easily added them at literally no extra cost to this stupid flag one!, e.g. partially legalising drugs, euthanasia and the TPPA, to name three.
And now with the release of the four flag designs today, we have Richie McCaw supporting FJK’s choice, the silver fern! There’s the reason FJK has attached himself to the AB captain for the past month or so!
I did have some respect for McCaw through his strong and dignified leadership of the ABs. However, now that has gone, since allowing himself to be used by FJK!
Shame on Richie McCaw for giving FJK the chance to abuse his celebrity status to promote FJK’s flag option!
+100 Wild Katipo
…you dont see the Brits , or the Scots or the Irish or the Welsh… or most other countries eg Israel and the USA changing their flag to accommodate new immigrants
….a flag represents history and founding culture and founding laws..otherwise you might as well rebrand every year
Truth is John Key wants to rebrand New Zealand because he wants to reframe his terrible legacy ….a legacy that consists of ASSET SALES and ripping off New Zealanders
f….not repetition again!…really it is very disconcerting if you make a comment and it does not seem to register or come up…ie it disappears completely into the ether
…so you make the comment again but in different words because you cant remember exactly what you said….and again it doesnt come up
so you do it again…and same again ( gone into the ether) …and then suddenly… some time later …all three of the same damned comments reappear !…( please Daily Blog get this sorted)
+100 Mary_A
I’ve just checked out the choices. It is so clearly a manipulated selection that there is no way this can be a real choice.
Two of the flags are black and white and will be unacceptable because of the black.
One has black as well as colour and will be rejected for the same reason.
Only one has colours with no black and by a wild coincidence (yeah right…) is the one Dear Leader likes. And so, apparently, does Richie MacParrot.
There is nothing to represent the Tangata Whenua.
It is a sham and a fraud and is exactly what you get for voting in shitheads.
Well done…
Actually i don’t recall the Tangata Whenua having a flag or symbols. Or even any concept of nationhood. But then I guess, as a Tangata Whenua myself, I really need patronizing white men to tell me what I need. No wonder we have deserted the vacuous Labour left in droves over the last decade.
@Peter …are you really Tangata Whenua?…your ignorance and arrogance makes me doubt it!
…Maori had many symbols!…and they had concepts of nationhood eg there were two paramount chiefs in the South Island … and they both signed the Treaty…in the North Island there were also concepts of nationhood…eg King Country…and most North Island Chiefs signed the Treaty
…. the Tangata Whenua had the Southern Cross in the skies to sail by…this was a symbol and a flag sign in the heavens pointing the direction for safe journey destinations by sea ( hence the Southern Cross symbol on our New Zealand flag)
….Tangata Whenua also had the Treaty of Waitangi…the legal founding cultural document of New Zealand signed by the paramount Chiefs in both the North and the South Islands with the British Crown
…the Treaty of Waitangi is represented by the UNION Jack in the corner of the New Zealand flag…again a symbol of a Treaty between two peoples and the LAW of nationhood…and one which many other indigenous people around the world envy
Unfortunately one party breached the TOW and continues to breach the TOW.
There are so many elements, with respect to the process of choosing these flag designs, that is absurdly wrong. From the people involved in making the selections and the methodology followed, to the fact that the national party cabinet had the final sign off on the four referendum flags.
This is an arrogant political game being played out that creates more division than unity. A flag must unite a people, as a symbol that we can stand beside and one that represents us as a country in good times and bad.
I like many here wish to respond to this arrogance by ‘defacing’ the first ballot, by making it a NO CONFIDENCE statement against this so called government.
The second ballot I can only vote for the existing flag, anything else will stand only for division and delusion.
Joana – nailed it.
‘Spoil’ the first ballot, with your own statement.
The second ballot, I will be voting status quo.
The fern now has connotations of sport and politics mixing for me and it stinks. It’s as bad as Muldoon sanctioning the 1981 Springbok tour (which our Dear Leader forgets his stance on FFS).
The fern also has connotations of the rowing advert in the last elections, with the stolen Eminem song “lose yourself” soundtrack (hypocrite National Party for sanctioning the FBI raid on Kim Dotcom’s mansion for “piracy”, when National pirated Eminem’s song FFS)
I agree with Frank. Invalidate the first vote with an unsuitable epithet to Dear Leader with a suggestion or drawing of an anatomical orifice to put his ballot and/or his flag into. Then status quo. FJK
you could use the first ballot as toilet paper ..ie really despoil it…to let them know that this is what will happen to their new flag
Spoil & Foil. More on this later today…
Sending in a soiled ballot paper may get you in a spot of bother, leave that type of behaviour to Auckland Real Estate Agents.
1000% Chooky I will let my cat do that.
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