‘Claimed to have a gun’ isn’t really the same as ‘having a gun’ eh?

1. Yes. However, we do, by any reasonable criteria, now live in a Police State. The events surrounding the ‘raid’ on Nicky Hager and the police’s abysmal failure to do anything about the obvious law-breaking in regard to #DirtyPolitics is all the evidence we need.

   Then there is the events of the Rambo-style raid on the Dotcom mansion, acting as the local franchise of the FBI.

2. The police wanted to get drones didn’t they? Did they get them? As much as I am not really happy with the idea of police using drones, this would have been a perfect situation in which to use one. At least to confirm if he was armed or not, then decide on the best course of action.

3. I always (naively apparently) thought the gold standard of policing was NOT to fire unless actually literally fired upon (or to protect others that have actually been literally fired upon). Isn’t what happened here the pretty much EXACT definition of the good old “pre-emptive strike”. By this rationale it’s incredible to me at this point that humanity still hasn’t managed to burn itself in nuclear fire given that “Russia/USA/China/Pakistan/Israel/North Korea/India/France/England COULD launch at any time, since they have the capability”. Why do we tolerate this, but not that?

   • I’ve always thought the gold standard of common sense was to shoot someone before they shoot you, otherwise you are the one who ends up dead, not them.

     Not sure where you got your ‘gold standard’ of policing from, but it must have a whole lot of dead ‘heroes’ on the wall.

   • The problem is that if you wait until someone has already fired at you, then you, (or someone else) is likely dead or seriously injured. Abdominal gunshot wounds have a particularly nasty fatality rate.

     Though there is of course a middle ground.

     • I appreciate that, however do you folks still subscribe to that when no gun has been sighted let alone pulled on the officers (which is clearly what happened here)? The officers in question cannot possibly have been threatened with a gun when there is no gun. Right?
       I do wonder how this sort of mentality would work in the US, especially in states where “open carry” is legal (i.e. where a gun can legally be carried in a holster in full view of the public).

       • Do you understand the meaning of “threatened”? You don’t have to have a visible gun to threaten to shoot someone, or from the cops point of view, to have a genuine belief that your life is in danger.

         The heading for this post is nonsense – police are trained to treat all claims of being armed as genuine. To do otherwise would be stupid. Responding with tasers is equally nonsensical, and sacrificing police dogs to determine if he’s lying or not is simply inhumane.

         Presumably in US “open carry” states so long as you’re not threatening with the gun, you’re not breaking the law.

         • We’re not in the United States, so “open carry” does not apply.

         • Come on, the cops to shooting training, they can aim at the legs or hips or arms of a target, to disable the person. What happened seems to have been an over-reaction.

4. “Claimed to have a gun isn’t really the same as having a gun though eh?” Maybe, maybe not on this occasion but what say he did and they realised too late?

   Don’t ever stereotype anyone, ever! Is that not what TDB preaches?

   Don’t judge these cops by virtue of being police and whatever bias one has toward or against police, judge them on what they believed was happening for them at that moment right in front of them.

   Would you do the same given exactly the same circumstances if you were them with exactly the same brief moment of time to make that decision? Hindsight is a wonderful thing for the punters at home who prejudge, a thing that those cops never had!

5. Seriously? You give me a gun, you have a taser, you seriously think you can get within taser range of me and use it before I aim and shoot? Ditto with the Police dog.

6. carrying what appeared to be a firearm.

   Although statements such as this from police in the past have been purely self serving, I suggest no one can call this until it’s known what he was carrying and what it really looked like.

7. I agree. Where were the tasers and the dogs as the first line of call?

   Getting more and more like the ruthless and violent US police activities, unfortunately! Shoot first and to hell with the consequences.

   Without knowing the circumstances of his personal life, Mr Cerven seemed to me to be a troubled young man, possibly lonely and without much support in a foreign country.

   Now we can wait for another government and police whitewash!

   • I agree Mary A.Why don’t the cops just come clean on this ? He “‘may”‘ of been armed ? WTF.Either he was or he wasn’t , Which one is it ???If he wasn’t ,the public of New Zealand will never be told the truth, you can be assured of that.

8. The most effective way to tell the difference between someone claiming to have a gun and pointing what looks like a gun at you is to wait and see if you actually get shot. Chances are if you are shot, then he actually has a gun.

   • Your comment seems to indicate the general impression in NZ is, the cops are incompetent and poor shooters. And the record seems to prove this too.

     What do they do training for? What do they do the shooting exercises for? A cop who walks up unprotected or unguarded towards a person claiming to be armed with a gun, and exposes him- or herself, is an amateur and should not be in the job.

     So to claim that waiting to have proof of a person holding a gun is “nonsensical” or something similar, that is silly.

     The officers could hide behind buildings, trees and so forth, and keep a person under surveillance, while making appeals to the person to lift arms and hands and dispose of a weapon first. Some attempts of negotiation should be made, which does not seem to have happened here.

     I think that someone pulled the trigger too quickly, either being too nervous, unsure, afraid or whatever. It does not look like a professionally managed incident to me.

     It is certainly possible to ensure oneself first, whether a person does actually have a gun, and intends to use it, without risking to be shot first.

9. I can’t believe that people on here are seriously suggesting sending in a police dog or a police officer with a taser whenever someone ‘claims to have a gun’.
   Hindsight is wonderfully accurate, but the reality is that “Hey Sarg, turns out he was telling the truth when he claimed to have a gun, and both Constable Brown and his dog have been shot dead’ is not something a police officer should ever have to say!

10. Like Father

    Like Son

    Like Police State U.S.A.

    Like New Zealand

    One World Military enforced by police ==>> N . W . O .

    Yippeee —– avoid police and QUESTION ALL AUTHORITY !

    ____________________________________________

    http://nworeport.me/category/police-state/

11. Agree with all of the points suggesting the Police were in the right. You might hate me for saying, but apparently he called them up and told them he had a gun. If this is true, I am not surprised how it went down… The guy who died should have dropped to the ground with his hands behind his back but no… he wanted to die like that… Only my opinion.
    K16

    • Agree, fairly sure myself, this is a suicide by police case.I guess if you were determined to die that way you’d go out of your way to convince police you were armed, I imagine a few armed robberies prior might go some way to convince them.

12. I must be getting old. I recall that in England a great many years ago, the English police carried no guns. Confronted by an armed man they were expected to disarm him. Which they did. Mostly the crim just accepted the situation. Were any police killed? Sometimes, but rarely, and the outcome was that generally NO-ONE died. In the situation under discussion one person died, possibly unarmed, certainly unnecessarily.
    Looking at the above comments, I am appalled that life has become so cheap. Something in our society has changed since the times that I was referring to. What is it? Possibly the reason is that any one who shot a policeman received the death sentence, no exceptions. It is one of the reasons that I think that there is a place for the death sentence in society.
    A more likely reason is that NZ society has become more violent. That is proved in an endless succession of statistics. We have reached the point where we expect nothing better. But its still a shock to see it in a left wing blog.

    • What you are lamenting, is caused by the desensitisation of the population.

      The media has gone to great lengths to increase the amount of death, destruction, gore and evil that the average person is exposed to and now we are all desensitised.

      Aushwitz will happen again, public opinion only needs to shift a little bit more.

    • The media would have us quivering in our houses at night afraid of a ‘home invasion’ or similar but the fact is NZ and most ‘western’ type nations have seen a steady decline in violent death for over a hundred years.

      Many (maybe most?) of the murders you read about in the newspapers are drug & alcohol related – people who chose to get off their head and have a brawl outside a boozer at 2am or fights between people involved in drug manufacture and distribution.

      These are essentially self-selecting victims.

      • Andrew, I think think you betray your lack of understanding of addictions and their causes. Best you research this subject before making a complete fool of yourself.

        Mind you, you are using a pseudonym, so I guess you need not worry about being seen as an ill-informed twat by those who know you…

13. “To call them and then tell them he had a gun when it seems he did not has all the hallmarks of a suicide by Police”

    I agree with this message and Martyn’s take on this.
    This man was desperate and so we as Humans why didn’t we except to act more civilly here?

    Shoot to disable if body armour is worn but not kill.

    There are many other ways now that can & should have been considered as the task here, as even the use of tranquilliser guns should be used in these “Suicide” suspect cases and secondly they could have used a stun gun!

    Christ in Africa I saw an elephant bought down this way and this was done from 150 meters away behind a armour plated bullet proof shield, but the police are grossly underfunded now to even be issued with even a full body armour to protect themselves now perhaps. surely.

    I don’t think this was done properly, shit even in the US it would be done more humanely except for recent numerous killings of African Americans.

    sorry of where our once peaceful country has now wund up with this shoot first & ask questions later stuff.
    Where the hell is the armour and shoot not to kill approach the police are trained to carry out?

    Something doesn’t add up here as the guy apparently called to alert the police he had a gun or alerted someone anyway so we should really know what he said and so far it is not clear all that transpired yet we have everyone saying shoot first and aim to kill and then find out later what happened.

    Christ this is setting a real precedent don’t you all know!

    Next we will be like the US all bearing arms, do you all want that?

    What a legacy to leave our kids and grandkids, we need to think rationally here not Dirty Harry. You have been watching to much violence on TV to even care or see where are headed.

    The marking down here on this subject of those who question this killing suggests Martyn that either the FBI/NSA or local constabulary are marking all dissenters down.

    • Thanks, Cleangreen. That is precisely the point I made (possibly badly) above. Some of the comments I am reading here could have been written by red-necks from Alabama.

      • They are rednecks, from true blue voter background, sent in by Whalespew or one other member of “the club”.

14. Threats of this nature have to be taken very seriously, there is no second chance in a life and death situation.
    A taser is a very short range weapon that can only be fired once before having to be reloaded. A firearm depending on what type can fire a number of bullets in rapid succession from a greater distance and cause injury or death.
    It takes time for the dog squad to arrive and time is not a luxury anyone can have in a situation of this magnitude. In the time it takes for the dog squad to arrive an innocent life can be taken which is why a situation like this has to be treated with urgency.

15. Hmmm, there seem to be a few “Down Votes” here… wonder which organisation has highlighted this blogpost and encouraged their members to vote down…

    • The down votes come from the “Common Sense Organisation for People that live in the Real World.” Whereas the up votes for those who agree with Bomber are the “Organisation for those without a clue.” The later organisation is populated by lazy people with no work ethic who have a sense of entitlement and have useless qualifications such a liberal art, political science and philosophy degrees.

      • Riiiiight…

        Now, take a deep breath, Stephen…

      • Do you actually believe yourself Stephen? If so, that’s actually quite sad.

      • Idiot

      • Classic comment Stephen!

        You hit the nail on the head. 🙂

      • A fair percentage of New Zealanders, and particularly male ones, are sadly overly adrenalin driven, and struggle to control that hormone in too many situations. Hence the high level of domestic and also child abuse, road rage and what else there is.

        Those are often also the ones ringing into talk back, claiming they know the “real world”, but in reality, that is the world they perceive to be real to them.

        So your comment means neither here nor there.

        We have some readers here defending the cops, no matter how trigger happy, incompetent or whatever they are. While some agreeing with Martyn to dare to apply some sound scrutiny, and not rush out and wave hurrah to any man dressed in a blue or for that sake also brown or dark green uniform.

    • That sometimes happens,Frank, but I think that is not the case here. I think that because so many comments and mark-downs indicate a right wing perspective you conclude that someone is rigging the votes.
      I wish I could agree, but the truth is worse. Kiwis who can happily write a left wing comment on , say, asset sales, are red-necks when it comes to law and order. How else to you explain the “shoot first and ask questions after” remarks ? Thats lifted straight off Fox News in the USA.

16. Stephen accuses us of “lazy people with no work ethic who have a sense of entitlement and have useless qualifications such a liberal art, political science and philosophy degrees.”

    I take offence here as this is a very hasty characterisation here and wrong here.

    I am a 71yr old highly anchored past blue collared retiree with a strong community conscience and ethics and very active helping our community with all my late life energy thank you.

    If you want to throw those loose characterisations around please qualify them by explaining why when my Daughter was a training Florida Police officer she observed and was taught desist and identify the situation before drawing her firearm at most domestic disputes and other callouts.

    She rode in plenty of armed squad cars in downtown Miami regions so why don’t they do this here?

    • And would you tell your daughter that if someone tells you they have a gun, and then they point what appears to be a gun at you, that you should wait to see if it fires before deciding whether to shoot back?

      Somehow I don’t think so.

      • Yeah right, shoot first, then ask questions, hooray, we live in the wild west of Texas here. Be fair, give every one a gun, I suppose, that must be your logic.

17. Yes, there are definitely some loopy Rambo style postings here and I really dislike and reject that view, but I guess at least it IS your opinion. You should express it.

    What Frank’s referring to is something I noticed before I actually got to his post. That strange inconsistency of the votes. It’s been done before many times here and I strongly suspect this is yet another one of these very silly pointless attacks from right wing geeks.

    If it smells like a rat…

    As for Martyn’s blog, I agree ‘Claimed to have a gun’ isn’t really the same as ‘having a gun’.

    As the old zen story goes, “do painted rice cakes stop hunger?”

    The police are definitely getting more and more trigger happy. I don’t have the research to back that up (Frank?) but just my own memory of how many of these shootings there has been during my life here.

    What is more concerning for me is that there is no independent system for inquiring into these events. In the same way that Serco is responsible for reporting on itself (and you ALL jumped down their throats for that one) the Police are responsible for reporting on themselves. Fishy smell?

    Notice the complete clamp down on ANY information on this incident from the Police, even refusing to comment on the number of shots fired (the answer is three or four from a number of witnesses who heard them – a gun is not a discreet machine). And how long they left the unfortunate Mr Cerven lying under a plastic sheet and the park closed off. They have a remarkable resistance to share even basic information with the public yet expect our cooperation when they need information etc.

    You can choose NOT to see this fact if you want, but the next time you get a 9mm lump of lead (or three – Police won’t confirm THAT) through your brain because Officer Wyatt Earp thought you were reaching for a “weapon” instead of your driver’s license, I’ll be more than happy to whizz over there and say “I told you so.”

    You seem to have the belief that only the mad or the bad (or the ugly) get shot by the Police.

    You may need to open your eyes a little to the reality…

    And the usual riposte to critics of Nu Zild, “if ya don’t like it here go somewhere else” doesn’t cut it.

    I didn’t think I was moving to Deadwood when I came here…

    I thought I was coming to a civilised country.

18. So the 111 phone call by the killed person is not going to be made public, the news reported yesterday. What does that tell us? Another dirty cover up, I presume, nothing more or less.

    And then we are supposed to trust the IPCA will conduct a thorough and independent investigation?

    Yes, I presume they will let the cops investigate themselves again.

    My suspicion is, the man had NO gun, was possibly mentally unstable, may have had alcohol and drug issues, may have been in a life crisis, hence his completely bizarre behaviour to rob some liquor outlets while on a “working holiday”, and perhaps was even suicidal, thus perhaps trying to challenge the cops to kill him.

    This is not the behaviour of a normal, mentally well person, what we have learned, and yes, instead of using police dogs, or other means, they went “Rambo” again, our boys in blue.

    From now on, early nighty nighty for all cops, off to bed at 8 pm if you are not on late or night shift, and no more Hollywood action films, no more interactive computer games where bullets and laser beam fire around.

    Calm down, lay down your arms, take some time out, breathe some fresh air, and chill out. This is heading into Mad Max territory, what we are witnessing in New Zealand.

    Gang violence, increased domestic violence, bodies chopped up, burnt, rape and pillage, hit and run and ram robberies, the usual meth and other drug madness, private prisons out of control, and we are supposed to believe crime is down, all is well in Aotearoa NZ.

    Welcome to the “brighter future”, yet again.

19. Hmm…. I see the right wing trolls are active on this page. Voting down all the sensible comments, and voting up the ones that are in favour of the Police State.

20. Another case of trigger-happy, under-trained and inept police, murdering someone in cold blood. The Police were so incompetent they couldn’t even find him themselves.

    The Police force in this country have no business carrying firearms because being an officer is actually not all that risky, contrary to all the media hype.

    Statistically, more farmers are killed each year on their farm bikes, than police, making it far more dangerous to be a farmer.

    For fuck’s sake people, wake up! Arming the police has always been about establishing dominance and creating fear amongst the minions, a do as you are told or else mentality. The PTB want us to fear the police so that the masses comply with whatever is thrown at us. It is gradual and it is sick. We, as a nation better start getting bloody disgusted or 1984, is exactly what we will get.

21. A serious question. I am not sure if I am talking nonsense or if this is at all feasible.
    Does anyone know if is it possible and safe for a “marksman” to take down a “potential” lethally armed “offender” with a rapid acting tranquilizer dart as used on large mammals in game reserves and zoo staff to carry out medical procedures on “wild” animals.

    This would not require police be exposed to fatal risk and greatly enhance the chance of a positive outcome for the “target” many of whom may be no more than mentally ill people or people undergoing temporary emotional trauma.
    Every effort must be made to avoid tragic outcomes while protecting the welfare of both the police and the “offender.”

22. Was he even armed ? (what with ? a plastic toy gun from the warehouse ? a bb gun ?)I mean how easy is it for a Foreigner , who can barely speak English, whose only been in the Country for a month or 2, and who it appears probably didn’t have any money (Hence his desperate acts of robbing liquor shops for cash) to obtain a firearm and ammunition ? The cops ”Blew this young Man away”, Why couldn’t they have wounded him ?But No, they shot to Kill !!!
    He was either armed or he wasn’t , why don’t the cops come clean, instead of this bullshit , he ”may” have been armed ?
    Anyway you can certainly rest assured that if he wasn’t in fact armed , the N.Z public will NEVER learn of that Truth.

23. It would be limited to former or current law enforcement or military personnel and they must receive training at law-enforcement academies. While it may be an exaggeration to say laws have been proposed to allow machine guns in bars it is not an exaggeration to say the same about guns in kindergartens,” Whittenburg said, pointing to bills in 17 states to allow guns in K-12 schools.

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