1. He hasn’t been caught out lying. You believe he lied. To ascertain for certain you would have to find out why he believed Hone Harawira stated he would pay for the trip to South Africa himself.

   Always fun to see another loopy left wing conspiracy theory take shape though.

   • Do you extend the same hair-splitting (best carried out with an electron microscope, BTW) to Auckland mayor, Len Brown?

     • I really have no firm position on Len Brown either way but I think you are missing a key distinction between the two. One is an elected official paid for out of public funds. The other is a private citizen exercising his democratic right to comment on issues of the day to try and influence decision makers while being funded entirely independently.

       • You’re avoiding my question. Too hard to answer?

         And what does the funding source have to do with it? Surely, you’re not suggesting that a publicly paid individual requires a higher standard than one paid for out of secret donations?

       • oh please – yes hes a private citizen – but one connected to and working with a well known faction who have shown a less than honest intention towards democracy and who have some very dubious funding sources and highly unpopular ambitions

         A group that uses manipulation, distortion and outright fabrication to try and get its way

         A group that couldnt have an honest debate because they know exactly how unpopular their ideas are

         You really do go to some lengths to ignore the obvious dont you goss

         • What group are you meaning?

           • seeing as your playing the thickie card i will give you a clue

             its a one word clue

             lusk

       • Goose and Ganderman, some may call certain critics, I am still working on one “Gosman”, who is appearing to be a bit “narrow minded” in the brain territory, but always giving due respect to critics, I am desperately waiting for a final convincing argument that may after all these diatribes finally prove he has something sensible to say. I am waiting, I am waiting.

   • well hes either fibbing or doesnt have a clue what hes talking about

     either one renders his words worthless

     but considering his connections are with people who have a rather sordid history of making shit up for political gain what do you reckon?

     so no conspiracy – more an assumption based on proven track record.

   • He would have read all of the press releases about Hone’s trip. There’s no way he would have missed them and thus there’s no way he would have been ignorant of what Hone actually said. All this means is that he was outright lying and he was doing so for political purpose.

     • Indeed, Draco. The same thought crossed my mind.

       As I put my blogpost together, I googled Hone Harawira’s intentions on his trip to SA. Unless I entered the wrong search parameters, there was no reference at all that Hone was going to foot the bill.

       The closest was the Fairfax statement on 10 December. Even there, Hone’s intentions are crystal clear.

   • Gosman ,you stupid little troll. Bored with The Standard?. Oh wait,thats right you were banned for your vitriolic bullshit.. Take the hint ,crawl back to the sewer

     • Not sure why this was allowed past moderation. I don’t disagree with the general sentiment of the comment, but personal attacks like this add nothing to a discussion, and encourage others to kick the player, rather than the ball too.

       • I have a feeling I know why that was let through moderation…

       • Well said Danyl.

2. Did anyone notice Key’s biggest porkie so far?

   ‘IN 1981 Sharples was just as big a protestor as Harawira.’ This is a total lie, Harawira was the leader of the Patu squad and probably has the scars to prove it. THis isn’t to disparage Pita, but it does show that Key is a total liar.

   • No body I know who was at the Protests can remember Pita Sharples doing anything. He definitely didn’t play any leading role, if he did do something.

3. All this right-wing bleating is simply hiding one simple point. Jim Bolger & Don McKinnon flew to SA & didnt attend any official or unofficial events. Harawira attended several, just not the ‘official’ memorial. He viewed the coffin in state, went to the house (!) performed Haka & Karakia (with his wife) & actually represented a large part of New Zealand, especially his Maori core supporters. He represented Aotearoa, not Neo-liberal New Zealand.
   He did a damn sight more than the unknown guest, who by the looks lf the photos, had a thoroughly miserable time being ignored by the hypocritical powerbrokers falling over themselves to wax lyrical over someone whos death they wished for, all those years ago.
   Hone Harawira did New Zealand proud, Don & Jim just did New Zealand.

   • @ Matthew. Hear hear. Well put.

     Hone through his personal traditional Maori farewell for Nelson Mandela, did us proud indeed. In doing so, he demonstrated he is a man of mana, showing great respect for Madiba, his family and the late president’s people. And more importantly, no “official” ego promoting photographer was required to record the event.

     Through his South African “jolly”, John Key’s newly acquired international label of “unidentified guest”, has confirmed what most of us already knew. That being, he’s really a nobody of very little significance, despite doing his best to be seen pressing the flesh of the big power brokers and movers and shakers on the world stage at Mandela’s funeral! That was Key’s aim in attending and nothing else and it backfired on him!

     Hone Harawira and John Key, two Kiwis, but a world apart when it comes to honour, respect and integrity.

     • John Key was born here but is he a real Kiwi?
       I bet he will be gone as quick as a flash when the party
       is over!

       • What is a ‘real’ Kiwi?

         • @ Gosman – A real Kiwi is someone who doesn’t commit treason against his fellow NZers, for personal gain!

           • So who defines what the act of treason is? A bunch of lefties like you in some kangaroo court I presume. I am reminded of Stalinist show trials in the 1930’s and people being decried as enemies of the people. Hard core lefties tend towards this sort of behaviour.

4. I find it slightly comical that NZ TV channels have to write “Right Wing Commentator” as a subtitle.

   Might as well write “drowns kittens and eats babies” as this presumably would convey the same implied message

   • Might as well write “drowns kittens and eats babies” …

     Is that a serious suggestion, Andy? I mean, I can contact TVNZ and pass on your recommendation if you like…

     Seriously though, Andy, do you have a problem with the nomenclature? Even Key admits that his is a “centre-right” government.

     • I don’t have a problem with nomenclature but I find the left vs right paradigm a bit one dimensional (boom boom)

       I am always fascinated though, how the media seem to feel the need to address right wing commentators and bloggers etc with the right wing label, but never do the same for left wing commentators.

       I guess it is an implicit health warning to the public. Ie look away now, here is one of those nasty free market people we disagree with and you should too.

5. Let’s face it – if people, Jordan and Key etc are unhappy then the most effective way forward is to direct the criticism to the parliament department that made the decision to fund Harawira’s trip. It is clear Mr Harawira would have gone whether funded or not.

   This is a political stunt being conducted while Key is being paid to address matters of governance. Clearly Key would prefer to electioneer for his party, distract the public and whip a section of us up into a negative frenzy rather than have us informed of the serious issues facing this country.

   There is a taxpayer funded ‘jolly’ going on here and it is not being conducted by Harawira.

   Good article thanks for the background.

6. Calling your group “the Taxpayers Union” is a bit presumptious. JW is basically claiming to represent all the tax payers of New Zealand. I haven’t been contacted by him yet.

   • Ohhhh…..where do I start with that one ….let’s see…..LGBT…..

     • “LGBT”

       is just an acronym of a grouping – a definition if you will

       its not really a lobby group is it

   • Taxpayers union is just another minority lobby group, representing the minority of people in nz that actually pay any tax.

     • Taxpayers union is just another minority lobby group, representing the minority of people in nz that actually pay any tax.

       Not quite sure what you mean by that, AndyS. We all pay taxes.

       I concur with Fambo, it is presumptious of Williams’ group which implies he represents all taxpayers.

       • “We all pay taxes”

         Who is “we”?

         Of the top of my head, around 37% of the taxes in NZ are paid by 6% of the population. If you are a child, or a family getting full WFF tax credits, you don’t pay any taxes.

         In general, I don’t see the problem with a lobby group that is standing up for government wastage. Lianne Dalziel took the choppers to the ChCh Council credit cards, and the NZ taxpayers union were supportive of this

         • But they arent standing up against govt wasteage – Thats the spin – its an exercise in manipulation

           We is everyone – if you earn or use money in any way your going to be paying tax somewhere (for most people)

           you can paly that little stats game till the cows come home – but its wrong. It doesnt include earnings %s and it doesnt include all forms of tax than income tax

           • I was referring to income tax, obviously we all pay GST, unless you live in an Amish community or similar.

             So, just to be clear here, if you are getting a full WFF tax rebate, you are paying NO INCOME TAX.
             I’m not making any value judgement on the rights and wrongs of WFF, but this is a simple statement of fact.

             Is this not correct?

             • And if you’re not getting WFF, you are paying tax. That includes single people; those on social welfare; etc.

               And because – as you point out – we all pay GST, then everyone pays tax.

               Those who pay MORE tax are obviously making MORE in income and profits.

               Fairly basic, I would think; earn more, pay more. That is the nature of progressive taxation.

               And if you’re suggesting a flat tax rate, you won’t get much support here.

               And I repeat: Williams does not represent taxpayers. He represents himself and his neo-liberal, rich mates who want all the benefits of a modern society/economy, but don’t want to pay their fair share.

               • Yes I understand the nature of progressive taxation. I earn more, I pay more.

                 So when my friend turns up, last Christmas, with his family of four in his Volvo, tells me about his Wff credits, and shows me his handful of cash he has made cash free under the counter, I naturally smile, as they head out to go out and play while I get back to work to pay my fair share.

                 It’s only fair that I do this.

7. @ Gosman . squeak , squeak , squeak .
   ” Always fun to see another loopy left wing conspiracy theory take shape though. ”
   Well perhaps but any Left wing conspiracy theory no matter how loopy could ever come even close to the horrors of our Right wing reality . Or as I prefer to think of it as Darksiders versus Lightsiders .
   We don’t have two opposing mindsets disagreeing to agree . We have a small clan of cunts having a giggle while making millions off the backs of the suffering many so laugh it up chuckles .

   So , Jordan Williams is a lawyer . Nothing more needs to be said .

   However , did you know Gosman ? I hear they’re using lawyers in laboratories now instead of rats . They’ve found that there some things even rats won’t do . And oldie but a goodie don’t you think . Well , clearly no , you don’t spend much time thinking do you ? Plotting and scheming and no doubt making money would be what keeps you in your small , dark box would be my guess .

   Hone Harawira and John Minto should have gone to Mandelas funeral and jonky , bolger and mckinnon should have gone to prison .

8. Jordan Williams is a self serving little prick, I would say. I saw him and only a handful of “protesters” against MMP and so, at a brief pre election meeting that Winston Peters held at Aotea Square in Auckland in late 2011. They were all familiar right wing faces I saw around him, and he is as “apolitical”, “neutral” and “independent” as George Bush was on Saddam Hussein harbouring chemical weapons.

   That man, I am surprised he is even a lawyer, is to be mistrusted. So if Hone Harawira went on “a jolly” to South Africa, is it not so bloody evident to him, that we have a PM who did the same, and who is just that PM here, “at a jolly”, I dare to say, as he already said, he is off to Hawaii, to his second home, for weeks to come!

   If New Zealanders out there would be informed, would bother following the REAL news, and learn what really goes on (check the alternative websites, perhaps), we would NOT have this government in power, but we have.

   So “taxpayer’s union”, same as “ratepayer’s union”, they tend to support all these self serving bastards, as many of the “union” members are self serving themselves. They do NOT care about greater policies, they want it all their ways, and hence we have a country here that does not function, as it is most all into if for THEMSELVES, and giving a dim shit about the rest.

   Thank you Jordan Williams you are one of the “leaders’ in self serving aggrandizement and manipulation, you will never convince me!

   • I have worked on a number of government IT projects where we have pissed away around $70 million of taxpayers money per project

     Who wins are the IT vendors and the contractors who get paid a day rate for a product that never gets delivered.

     Thankfully, I don’t work on such projects anymore, but I would really like there to be less of this kind of wastage.

     So do you think that a hypothetical lobby group that puts a stop to this kind of nonsense would be a good idea or not?

     • In general, I don’t see the problem with a lobby group that is standing up for government wastage.

       The problem is, AndyS, is that your perception of “waste” is different to others.

       I consider it waste that National is giving out taxpayers’ subsidies to Warner Bros, Rio Tinto, Southern China Airlines, SkyCity, etc – but manufacturers don’t get the same subsidies.

       You probably (I’m guessing) consider social welfare to be “waste” (though I’m also guessing you prefer to live in a country where the streets aren’t lined with thousands of beggars).

       As for other “waste”, I refer you to these instances,

       “Ministerial Waste & Hypocrisy”
       http://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/ministerial-waste-hypocrisy/

       “Health Minister circumvents law to fulfill 2008 election bribe?”
       http://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/health-minister-circumvents-law-to-fulfill-2008-election-bribe/

       If Jordan Williams were to oppose real waste in government spending, and instead wanted our tax-dollars re-directed to, say, alleviating child poverty – I’d join his organisation faster than I could sign the application form.

       If, however, he simply wants more tax cuts, then he and his rich mates can go jump in a lake. I will have no truck with even more selfishness in this country.

       • “I’m guessing that…”

         Why is this the standard response? I actually have a number of unformed opinions, one of which is around Working for Families, (I see a dichotomy between supporting the family unit and supporting welfare dependency)

         Do I want less beggars on the streets? Well, of course. Don’t we all?

         What about the film deal? I don’t know the answer here either. Would the deal have gone through with no tax breaks? The people interviewed on TV seemed pretty happy that the deal happened, and if there is a genuine commitment to grow the industry then surely this is good?

         As for “rich mates” wanting tax cuts, I don’t actually see that many rich people in NZ, but I live in rural South Island.

         I don’t see that wanting tax cuts is “selfish”. It is your money in the first place that the government have deemed to take off you and waste on inconsequential multi-million dollar projects. I’d be more than happy to divert some of that IT and other wastage into alleviating child poverty and raising the bar for NZers.

         Living in a small town as I do, I see a heck of a lot of volunteer effort that goes unrewarded financially and is mostly independent of government funding, so I maybe don’t see quite the same selfish society that you do, Frank.

         This has gone slightly off-topic, so sorry for that.

     • So you participated in rip off activities yourself, and now you turn around blaming it all on the government, for perhaps not covering their loopholes, which your previous employer or business parter was able to exploit.

       I read other your comments you made on other topics before, and it is apparent to me that you have no scruples and problems with serving your own interests, but while some of that may be morally questionable, you rush to blame government and others (e.g. those on benefits) for all wrongs that you perceive that exist. Throwing away blame and accusations like that is convenient, as you just distract from your own self serving conduct.

       • Who are you replying to?
         Of you are referring to me as my “rip off activities” with no scruples, I worked with people in these it projects and we put our jobs on the line by pointing out the major flaws in the projects to the top bosses.

         Perhaps you would like to expand on other comments that I have made that suggest that I have no scruples

         Actually, the fact that I haven’t crawled my way up the greasy pole of govt it suggests to me that maybe I have some scruples, but if you would like to lecture me otherwise, please be my guest.

   • Yes those pesky self serving rate payers. Imagine the horror the poor Christchurch council workers must have gone through to get their allowances for trim flat whites at Coffee Culture cut by that evil witch Lianne Dalziel.

     For goodness sake, it was only 10,000 pathetic earthquakes that the residents had to go through, and some old bags have to pay double rates because they were stupid enough to buy a home in a liquefaction prone area.

     It’s a basic human right to get a trim soy latte so stuff the self serving rate payers with their greedy middle class Anglo Saxon attitudes

9. Not surprisingly the subject of this post was invited onto the “Drive Show” on Radio Live, presently hosted by one well known right winger called Paul Henry. S we have right wing journos promote right wing pollies and vice versa. The whole media scape is full of it, but the ill informed public do not generally know or care.

   So NZ continues to be shifted the right, which almost goes unnoticed. Manipulation is an expert field of activity, and the MSM are experts at it. There is little chance for informed democracy or even progressive ideas or policies to take the stage in this highly manipulated society!

   • So agree Marc. Did any see the subliminal message in Herald on Sunday. They had pictures of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. The Good was Lydia Ko, the Bad was Winston Peters, something to do with immigration and then the Ugly was David Cunliffe for politicking at Nelson Mandelas funeral. WTF! No more newspapers in our house.

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