It always amuses me that the meanest attacks I get online are not from dear ole crazy-as-a-snake Whaleoil, they come from Green Party supporters and staff members. I block and unfollow more Green Party supporters on twitter than anyone else, being the fat kid at a NZ school, I’m well versed in the bullying by others so it’s water off a ducks back, but the viscousness of the left to self-mutilate ourselves and alienate other voters I believe will end up being one of the determining factors in Key winning 2014.
The Right look for converts, the left look for traitors.
The Emerald Stormtroopers of the Greens and the asthetic left of the Labour Party are far more interested in fighting amongst ourselves over which ideological differences we have rather than the vast things we agree on with no regard how it looks externally. The alienation that generates amongst the 800 000 who didn’t bother voting means we are forever doomed to lose the recruitment war to create change.
Such schisms were fine and dandy when they were only espoused at factional gatherings, but social media has a means of amplifying snarks into political currency.
Why join the self-mutilating Left when the Right have such nicer manners?
Take the recent Roast Buster case. It’s ended in a shouting match over who is the biggest rape apologist without any real progress being made other than to make Judith Collins look noble. When a Cop gets prosecuted this week for trying to pull sexual favors after he was busted for previous sexual misconduct, it suggests the focus on the Police and their mindset is what needs to be fought. Instead we have males throwing tantrums at being told to listen and trying to turn the debate into a freedom of speech issue. The righteous anger at tens of thousands of historical rapes that have never seen justice demands a change in Police culture and the culture of men, but that constructive and essential debate seems to have been ignored for quick point scoring by factions within the left.
Here’s a tiny example. Here’s one of the organizers for the Auckland Rape Protest March on Saturday attacking me on twitter…
…now TDB did four posts to promote that protest on top of a lot of blogs debating the Roast Buster issue since it broke. What the organizer here fails to admit is that…
a) The person writing the blog wasn’t able to get it in to us and
b) they didn’t actually send me the press release.
If I were Slater, I would spend all of next year combing social media for these examples and publicizing them under the hashtag #ifthisishowthelefttreatallieshowwilltheytreatyou?
The NZ right are unified in their hatred of the left, sadly so too are the NZ left.
Maybe it’s the death of unionism or maybe it’s the impact of consumer-culture individualism, but solidarity and the finding of common ground on the left has been bludgeoned to death by the desire to burn heretics.
Unless the leadership of the Greens, Labour & MANA are able to show co-operation at the highest level (and they should do this by meeting and deciding to use MMP tactically), the social media schisms have a means of undermining any real attempt to topple Key in the 2014 election.
Either the leadership of the left start showing some leadership or a new outsider political party emerges next year that walks away from ideology altogether and offers that to the 800 000 voters who were too put off to vote in the last election, because as it stands the left is more divided now than ever before.
Meanwhile we are spending $282million on a war in Afghanistan while 270 000 kids live in poverty, public assets are being transferrer to the wealthy via tax cuts and a Police force’s misogyny goes unchallenged.
Key won’t win because of policy, he hasn’t got anything beyond ‘make the rich richer’, Key will win because the Left are too busy trying to rip its own throat out.
The Prime Minister must be laughing.
I totally agree. Whether you agree with it or not, last election, the most left biased politishun I could identify as having and vague sense of direction was Winston Peters, which isn’t saying much.
Labour was lost, the Cunliffe/Shearer debacle should have been sorted before the Nats won the last election, behind closed doors, instead of being hosed all over the media like last night’s curry.
So, I am seriously looking at the Russell Brand stance of not voting due to no confidence in democracy, as I can’t find a single political party who knows what they are doing, or who I would trust to run our country.
Hell, if I wouldn’t trust them to look after my kids, why would I trust them to lead the country.
I know what you are saying and agree with you. Until you get to the not voting part because ANYTHING is better than having to listen to DonKey soundbites in that bloody accent of his. If I have to listen to, and put up with, those arseholes from national for another year I’m going to have to start taking Prozac. That and the fact that they’ll end up totally shitting on NZ if given another 3 years! So please vote.
And surely that’s much more important than the bitter squabbling over who holds a stronger stance over certain issues (which seems to be the bulk of the criticisms. Not that they have opposite stances, rather that one hasn’t given as clearer stance as some people might like).
And really, what’s more important? That Labour/Greens/Mana/etc holds a really strong stance on particular issues? Or that we rid ourselves of Key and his anti-democratic cronies before they can do any more damage?
Sure, it would be great if Labour had a very strong stance towards the environment/welfare/etc, but what they offer is a damn site better than what National is doing. And if you personally want them to hold stances more like the Greens (or another party), then you’re probably better off encouraging people to vote for the Greens than attacking Labour (which destroys the votes for both parties), since a stronger vote for them will give them more influence on the next government anyways.
I’m sure that most of us would agree that, while not as good as some of us may like, New Zealand under Labour (and the Greens, and Mana) will be a much better place than New Zealand under National.
Exactly! And realistically Labour is going into coalition with the Greens it’s only a matter of by how much. So here’s to unionism of a different kind – with Labour and the Greens singing “united we stand”. The sooner this is realised they can form a “blended family”, and keep any problems at “home” within the family. So let’s knock these bastards off. Sorry about all the clichés,
The trouble is that not voting will be the quickest way to deliver another 3 years of National. Not voting because of no confidence in democracy is nothing but a cop out.
Sure, it’s true that some cases of non-voting are the result of ignorance or apathy But for some anarchists, freemen-on-the-land, and others, not voting for political representatives is a vote for personal sovereignty, and participatory democracy.
Voting for the lesser of multiple evils is more of a cop-out. Let’s say a persons finds all the “Left” parties too keen to use state power to enforce narrow moral agendas. Would you rather they vote for ACT or Libertarianz as a protest vote for civil liberties and curtailing the power of the state, or just not vote at all?
I’m a Greenie, and I promise to dedicate 2014 to converting non-voters & fence-sitters – not telling peeps off. We’re not all crazy extremists, I promise. But I totally know what you mean – tis the same in the activist or hippy or neo-punk scenes – so much elitist pretentiousness can cut off anyone who wants to help for fear of not knowing the right jargon around non-hierarchical anarchy or Marx or organic soy candles. But I also fear headlines like this one will help the John Key cause more than it will change the Greenies minds. We already have a big enough fight on our hands without more people becoming disenfranchised and cynical about our chances to bring about positive change. I’m 25, and the number of depressed, hopeless and cynical young people baffles and saddens me. If you don’t like it, change it I say! You don’t have to start a revolution, just start with a potluck with some mates and share ideas, or pick up some litter on the beach, or give $5 to you fav charity once a week, or vote…
To summarize, I’m a Greenie – I like you Mr.Bomber, I’m sorry our kind have treated you so poorly and I still think we can kick John Keys ass. I’ll see you at the Voting Polls next year, I’ll be the one bribing people with baked goods to cast their vote to the Left.
spot on, avenging angel..my sentiments exactly. after that asswipe and his shit cronies got in for another term I went into total political shut down…still can’t stand to watch any of the main stream news if I can help it ..the left have got to get their act together god forbid*…I aint religious..ha ha mores the pity me thinks
Ha ha! I’m more and more tempted to take up voodoo and doll making in my more desperate moments of impotent fury. I literally (the kardashians have ruined that word but it applies) have to mute the t.v. whenever DonKey or ANY of his minions get face time on the news.
I luvs ya too Martyn and I’m a Green supporter – you’re da bomb! (so to speak)
I hear your words. I share your fears.
Martyn;
as usual,you hit the nail on the head.Any leader who can unify the left will be able to tranform NZ;after all he/she will already have done the impossible..
maybe we should wait till February and see what the Blobby Party comes up with;Kim D.C is at least more entrtaining than most politicians..
This is a very perceptive piece Mr Bradbury.
At the risk of a poor thumbs up/down rating (the horror!), I’m not sure I can agree with this piece. Tactical voting, strategic political arrangements, ‘Popular Front’ type movements – these all have their place. But so does honest political introspection. Sometimes we need to question our allies, to determine whether they really are our allies! For example, is Labour travelling in the same direction as the rest of us on the (supposedly) far-left? Are the Greens? I’m speaking from my perspective as a MANA supporter, but these are reasonable questions to ask.
My fear is that by looking for allies in Labour (and to a lesser extent, the Greens), we compromise our principles to such an extent as to almost abandon them altogether. This does not preclude leftists from working with Labour where appropriate, but does mean that we need to keep our distance as well, and be very ready to criticise them when they prove themselves to be our enemy (which, from the point of view of genuine leftists, is more often than not).
All that said, profanity and personal attacks have no place in political discourse.
The prefix “intro” is an important part of introspection. Indulging in exospection is just a damaging and useless egotistical wank fest.
Yes I agree – I am a Green party member – we need to be able to criticise, I am not interested in supporting centre left politicis, I think it is crap and I think that is primarily what Labour stands for in its latest guise anyway.
Totally agree. The honeymoon period of the left heralded by the Labour Party leadership election is behind us now. Now it seems there is a mad scramble of “who gets what” between the left leaning parties (in particular Labour and Greens). It must be said this seems to be not happening so much at caucus level where most have a grasp on compromise but at membership level.
The goal to focus on is winning in 2014 not who is more correct or has the biggest voice or is more ideologically pure. The Natzis understand this which is why they’ll happily jump into bed with Colin Craig to win. And win is the only word that is important now. Oppose the government not other reasonably similar parties in opposition.
To me an answer would be to have multi-party accordance between opposition parties publically announced on the MSM in interest of pulling us back from oblivion. Nothing specific or set in stone on policy – that is done at party level – but a shared set of ideals on economic and social issues. Leave the minutiae and differences to post 2014. For now focus on a singular goal
What a load of codswallop. The Daily Blog spends as much time attacking the Labour and The Greens as Whaleoil does, it is just more people read Whaleoil.
You spent the last year with such a ‘Labour Coup Boner’ I could have confused your blog with Three News. I understand that you didn’t like the Shearer camp and saw it as the wrong direction and there are aspects of that which I respect, but to turn around and whinge about unity because several people who feel they were treated shabbily by you called you out, is petty and intellectually dishonest.
Seeing as you are one of the worst offenders David, this is amusing. You went onto my wikipedia account and made all sorts of nasty comments didn’t you?
That wasn’t him. It was me (for the sake of honesty) pissing around one day long ago. There was a mix up in using of the Ace McWicked moniker to which admitted.
It wasn’t even funny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Martyn_%22Bomber%22_Bradbury#I_should_probably_point_out…
Are you trying to prove your own point? 😛
You spend a whole blog post complaining about lack of unity and bullying, and then you say:
“Wow, what an arsehole you are.”
How about leading by example Bomber?
What makes you think he’s a Green?
No, you’ve said that the actions of one person proves your point about “Green supporters” as a group.
That’ll definitely contribute to the ~unity of the left~.
My mistake comrades – I am told Contraian is part of the aesthetic left of Labour – not a Green Party supporter at all, so let me reclassify – have I vandalized a wiki page belonging to Labour? Have a vandalized a wiki page belonging David Shearer? I disagreed with the direction he took Labour in, but I never vandalize his page and pretend it was someone else did I?
The divisive crap amongst the left goes with some in Labour as well, let’s not forget the ABCs who held Labour back for 2 years.
The Contrarian is a right wing troll from the standard.
It spends the whole day trolling and diverting
Dont believe me go and find it
Heh, ‘right wing’ indeed. I could be called a lot of things but right-wing sure ain’t one of them
I agree with RisildoWgtn. You come across as right wing, but mainly incredibly narcissistic. Why else would you vandalise Bomber’s wiki entry?
You are not wrong Bomber, and we all need to try and treat each other better. For example last weeks hero of the moment Mr Tiso soon proved himself to be as petty as any old fashioned bitchy exchanger of literary letters. You yourself put the slipper into Chris Trotter also.
How to handle disagreements has always been the lefts undoing. It used to be international matters that put us on the reef–the Sino–Soviet split, The Alliance and Afghanistan. Now it is more likely to be ‘identity’ issues. “Sweet Jesus” does not a genuine lefty support the struggles of all exploited and oppressed people and sections thereof?
My view is once the main strategic aim for a certain period is determined everything else is somewhat subordinate. For 12 months the priority is to prevent the Key gang from holding office after the ’14 election. The vast majority of men, women, children and the environment demand this one way or another.
Solidarity Solidarity Solidarity!
difficult concept for the young these days.
My offspring’s flatting experiences have epitomized the triumph of individualism. Every one in the flat buys their own Food and there are no cooking rosters or meals had together.
and they wonder why it costs so much to live and there are disputes over cleaning.
Methinks they do not understand anything about about the basic rules of survival.You work together people or you fail. Simple really!
Its Dan, and no I didn’t. If I had, I’d have owned up because I’d have possibly gotten props for it amongst the Emerald Stormtroopers.
Sorry, I always mix you and David up. It must have been another AceMcWicked who changed details on my wiki page then.
It’s common for that to happen. And yes it was. I also mentioned this to you at the time.
That’s right, you did and based on your past abuse of me online, I didn’t believe you then either.
Bomber, take a break. Go fishing or do a tour of provincial libraries or something, please. A fresh and revived Bomber is valuable to us all, even when he unforgivingly casts aspersions on my boomer generation. The Bomber who wrote this blog column and who is replying to comments is not the one we need. Maybe you could visit some organic gardeners in the provinces and build some bridges. Maybe you could go fishing with Elvis Teddy. There’s a whole world out there. We’ll wait for you.
Terribly sorry I didn’t reply earlier, I was picking up my beautiful Daughter from kindy. Thank you for telling me how I should feel about this.
I do agree with what you’ve said, and it’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately — the left seeking traitors etc. I certainly think a lot of social media I see is the left arguing with the left, and I also know this is something I’m guilty of as well.
That said, I wonder if it’s because the left view tends to encompass a wider range of ideas, social and cultural groups and nuanced thinking. The left is less prone to generalisations (she generalises) and talking points, and more likely to have a complex debate about issues that are understood to be complex. This is something the right tends to whitewash by making rhetorical statements. I think you will always have debate when you admit to complexity. Of course I realise there’s sometimes a clear difference between debate and the finger-pointing kind of behaviours I think you’re talking about, but I think it’s at least a useful thought. Maybe?
I should clarify, I agree with the post in principle, though not in particular. Your example was a bit shoddy. It kind of screams “some girls were mean to meeeee!”
Terribly sorry I didn’t reply earlier, I was picking up my delightful Daughter from kindy. Thank you for telling me how I should feel about the examples I used to make my point of the divisiveness of the Left.
I don’t doubt if you had someone slagging you off for things that aren’t true, I’m almost certain you would hold your tongue too.
Cheers
Did you try communicating with them before you wrote a blog post about it though? It’s fair to be annoyed if you saw it as slander, but really, is this the answer?
I certainly did communicate it – directly with all 3 of them on twitter AND with the liaison person who we had contact with for the protest.
And the reply was what exactly that made you still feel it was totally on point to use this out-of-context twitter conversation as a screencap/example in a Russell-Brand-themed blog post?
I don’t disagree with the main point, to be clear, I just wonder that you couldn’t’ve found a better example.
The issues around coal mining get to the nub of the matter in my view.
Take a trip up to Denniston Plateau, and you will see a living museum of the roots of the NZ labour movement, and the hard working people who toiled, lost limbs and lives to eke out a living.
The modern left has changed beyond recognition from these days, with its obsession with identity politics, climate change, and other fashionable memes du jour.
However important you may find these issues, they don’t gel with a large part of NZ.
>> However important you may find these issues, they don’t gel with a large part of NZ. <<
You mean the 40% that don't say they support more government action on climate change in the poll Jenny links to here? Even if the majority of the population supported allowing deep sea oil drilling and opening new open cast coal mines – which I don't think they do – the physical facts (finite nature of fossil fuels, greenhouse effect, current climate instability etc etc etc) would still be against them.
I'm really sorry that a large part of the population has been conned into thinking that a fossil-fuel based economy is sustainable, or even the best we can do. I'm doing everything I can to fix that, as are millions of people around the world. If Labour supporters want their party of choice to be seen as anything other than National-lite, they need to convince their leadership to get their heads our of the sand, and support the urgently-needed transition to a post-fossil-fuel economy.
I couldn’t agree more, But you may think it is all very well to slam the Greens for this sort of behaviour, but where do you think this sort of thing, (and worse), comes from Bomber?
I have been likened to police spy Rob Gilchrist[i] and fascist murderer Joseph Goebbels[ii] and even received veiled death threats[iii] by Labour Party members for trying to bring out into the open, the obvious differences between labour and the Greens over their respective stands on climate change. Particularly where each stand over deep sea oil drilling and new coal mines. (My purpose was not to cause splits or spread disunity, the differences were there already), what I was hoping, was they by openly discussing the differences we could try and sort it out.
Unfortunately the Authors at The Standard, the Labour aligned blogsite choose to throw a blanket over both the Labour and Green Party positions claiming that Labour and the Greens are “remarkably the same”.[iv]
Brooking no other opinion at the nominally Left blogsite The Standard the authors refuse to allow any discussion on the matter, resorting to censorship and self censorship to keep hidden from the voters and Green Party members Labour’s support for new coal mines and Andarko’s 1,500m drilling operation.
The purpose of covering over these differences is the Labour Party’s refusal to consider the dangers to the climate that new coal mines and unconventional oil represent, against their desperate need to have the Green Party onboard as a full coalition partner bound by cabinet collective responsibility. Behind the scenes Labour activists and MPs have been trying to strongarm and bully the Green Party leadership into accepting Labour’s position. This is why they do not want this debate to break out into the open where Labour could not win it. Because as polls are showing over 60% of New Zealanders want more action on climate change[v]
If the Greens will not compromise in their opposition to Deep Sea Oil, or the Denniston Coal Mine, and Labour won’t compromise in supporting Deep Sea Oil and Denniston. Then we have an obvious problem that needs to be sorted out through rational discussion. Threats bullying and abuse and censorship will not solve this contradiction.
The Green Party to their credit have been standing up to the Labour Party of late. This is very heartening, and bodes well for the future.
The Nats are becoming increasingly isolated on their environmental record, particularly over deep sea oil. Can Labour continue to stick with National on Deep Sea Oil if the Greens stick to their guns?
I don’t think so. And once Andarko hear from David Cunliffe that an incoming Labour Green government will withdraw their consents, they won’t wait, they will take off.
If the Greens will not compromise in their opposition to Deep Sea Oil, or the Denniston Coal Mine, and Labour won’t compromise in supporting Deep Sea Oil and Denniston. Then we have an obvious problem that needs to be sorted out through rational discussion. Threats bullying and abuse and censorship will not solve this contradiction.
The Green Party to their credit have been standing up to the Labour Party of late. This is very heartening, and bodes well for the future.
The Nats are becoming increasingly isolated on their stand on the climate, in particular over deep sea oil. Can Labour continue to stick with National on Deep Sea Oil if the Greens stick to their guns in opposing it?
I don’t think so. And the moment Andarko hear a statement from David Cunliffe that an incoming Labour/Green government will withdraw their consents, they won’t wait, they will take off. To keep the pressure on the Labour Party, it is vital that the numbers of Kiwis mobilising to protest against Andarko increase in size. Rather than slamming the Greens Bomber, how about an act of solidarity instead? What I would like to see is The Daily Blog advertise the upcoming day of action[vi] and challenge the Labour MPs to turn up to it. How about it Bomber are you up for it.
[i] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-061013/#comment-706174
lprent: “Sure I compared her to Gilchrist….”
[ii] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-061013/#comment-706177
lprent: “Basically she acts like a modern-day Joseph Goebbels who in Nazi Germany had the role of making inflammatory and inaccurate memes as minister of propaganda. He also had the role of destroying the ability of people to check the veracity of those memes by destroying books that contradicted those memes published as books, pamphlets, speeches, etc…”
[iii] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-061013/#comment-706085
Te Reo Putake: “Am I the only reader wondering how much carbon burning martyrs contribute to the atmosphere?”
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-061013/#comment-706091
Colonial Viper: “Almost certainly less than 15kg of carbon released, depending on how it is done.”
[iv] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07102013/#comment-706297
lprent: “Even a cursory look at this early phase shows that they seem to have policies that look remarkably the same.”
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07102013/#comment-706327
Te Reo Putake: “My understanding is that both parties have nearly identical positions on coal”
[v] https://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/page/244/people-want
“People want more action on climate change”
64.4 per cent wanting Parliament to do more
60.6 per cent wanting the Prime Minister to do more and
62.9 per cent saying government officials should do more.
[vi]
https://www.facebook.com/events/607083666005148/?ref=5&utm_source=MailingList&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Banners+on+the+Beach+%232+-+UNFLAGGED
“Join us on your favourite North Island west coast beach on Saturday the 23rd Nov at midday.
If you can, get creative and bring along a banner to support the flotilla and Stop Deep Sea Oil. Show up with your friends and whanau, it’s going to a really fun day at the beach and a great way to stand up to risky drilling in New Zealand.”
The story we’re being told here is that there’s this group of people called “The Left”, and they all have something in common, something not shared with another group of people called “The Right”. This is nothing but myth. There is nothing all the people being arbitrarily gathered under the banner of “The Left” have in common except for a general disgust for the current National government.
When we fall for the myth of “The Left” vs. “The Right”, we get confused by the observable fact that those who oppose the Nats come from hundreds of social and political groupings, many of which have nothing else in common. Except, that is, for those universal things we share in common with every other human being on the planet, including those being demonized as part of “The Right”.
When Cunliffe says that his government will allow deep sea oil drilling as long as its “safe”, I see greenwash, and no reason to prefer a Labour government to the current National one. This is not a sectarian attack on people who ally themselves to Labour (whether from the inside or the outside). It’s picking a ‘canary-in-the-coal-mine’ criteria to test whether Labour under Cunliffe is really an alternative to business as usual. With enough pressure from potential supporters, Cunliffe’s statements might get braver than this. If not, then those of us trying to protect the biosphere (and ourselves) from the dying thrashings of fossil-powered globalization will have no reason to celebrate a Labour victory, let alone pour our limited energy into it.
As far as I can see the ‘Right’ tends to act on ‘what have we got in common’ – background, aspirations, shared values and mindsets, so they gather together and know what is meant by the broad global terms they use as shorthand. Communists, in the better sense of it, and they represent the members of their septs and clans – landowners, businesses, rentiers, in ways that prosper many of that ilk. Always on message. Always intent on winning.
For ages and ages, that which passes for ‘the left’ has been and is more interested in its internal differences, point-scoring, and backroom skulduggery. Apart from a rare and precious few – this tribe has lost the plot. Outrage and offended are so much easier than comprehension and thinking. They speak for very few. They appear to look down on many as they dole out stingy ‘largesse’. Messages all over the spectrum and from wherever. Always intent on scoring.
For me, the NZ Greens have lost the fire and the plot. Labour needs to clean out its self-serving cabals. And the sprats need to know for whom they speak and serve. Basic marketing, really.
Really? So you have decided to speak for the whole of the left?? I don’t think so.
There are many ways to approach coalition forming, but the essential divide between the Left and Right is that the Left believes that government has a core role to play in societal solutions, while the Right doesn’t. Beyond that is only idiolectic detail. On that basis coalitions can be formed involving some odd bedfellows. More impotantly, however it must be observed that worth policy, whether unilateral or harmonious agreement is not why people vote for a particular party. You need a vision of a better world ahead, not just a correction of some fault or other. The Left’s natural habitat is sarcasm and satire. Who can respect the butt of a Jon Stewart roast? No one hopes the future paradise will be based soley on a 67 year old retiree and a national insurance company, but rather a world where everyone gets a fair shake. Some of our more po-faced need to clean windows and crank up the irony. A clear and oft-stated message that the Right have a do nothing, hope for the best plan wouldn’t hurt either. There may be a master plan, but we’re still waiting to see it. Now would be a good time to start electioneering, and I don’t mean a good time to start wheeling out policy.
>> the essential divide between the Left and Right is that the Left believes that government has a core role to play in societal solutions, while the Right doesn’t. <<
If you are saying the Right doesn't use state power to enforce its solutions, then Key's National clearly aren't part of the Right. They have been brutally efficient at using their power as the government to enforce everything from the replacement of elected reps in Canterbury with a dictatorship of Brownlee, to bashing Roads of Dubious Significance through rural communities.
Also, are you saying anarchists can't be part of the Left? That would be news to the majority of anarchists.
Your formulation is nothing but a regurgitation of neo-liberal mythology. If we want to resist the powerful effectively, we have to stop letting their conceptual goalposts define the field of debate, and possibility.
Writing a whole post devoted to a person being ~mean~ to you on Twitter? The same person who organised a protest against rape culture? Classy.
Not at all, I used it as an example.
Yup you’re using the words of women who are sick of being overridden by political party press releases as an example.
Maybe, just maybe, you should consider that people don’t just say these things frustrate them for fun. Maybe women are sick of being talked over by ‘leftist’ men. Maybe, instead of going on a tirade about how leftists who call you out are ‘dividing the left’, you should think about your own role in alienating women. Maybe there’s a reason why so many women have left the Daily Blog.
Just some things to think about, but I assume this comment won’t even make it past moderation.
So sorry I haven;t replied sooner, I was picking up my wonderful Daughter from kindy.
Yup you’re using the words of women who are sick of being overridden by political party press releases as an example.
Ummm, nope. She is attacking TDB and me for not posting a press release we never received. She is attacking TDB and me for not publishing a blog that didn’t arrive through no fault of ours and she is attacking TDB for the lack of support when we posted about the protest 4 times on top of numerous blogs on the issue.
Maybe, just maybe, you should consider that people don’t just say these things frustrate them for fun. Maybe women are sick of being talked over by ‘leftist’ men. Maybe, instead of going on a tirade about how leftists who call you out are ‘dividing the left’, you should think about your own role in alienating women. Maybe there’s a reason why so many women have left the Daily Blog.
Maybe, just maybe she didn’t have all the facts but was happy to slag us off anyway, which was the point I was making in the paragraph directly above this example, let me repost it for you…
Take the recent Roast Buster case. It’s ended in a shouting match over who is the biggest rape apologist without any real progress being made other than to make Judith Collins look noble. When a Cop gets prosecuted this week for trying to pull sexual favors after he was busted for previous sexual misconduct, it suggests the focus on the Police and their mindset is what needs to be fought. Instead we have males throwing tantrums at being told to listen and trying to turn the debate into a freedom of speech issue. The righteous anger at tens of thousands of historical rapes that have never seen justice demands a change in Police culture and the culture of men, but that constructive and essential debate seems to have been ignored for quick point scoring by factions within the left.
In terms of ‘so many female bloggers who have left’ we had Nicole Skews leave after I wouldn’t allow her to post a comment about Chris Trotter sucking his own penis, and QoT quickly left and started making accusations that the TDB would steal money off her. We’ve replaced them with some excellent female bloggers and we are always looking for more.
Just some things to think about, but I assume this comment won’t even make it past moderation.
Again – I was out picking up my wonderful Daughter.
Thanks for dropping in with your thoughts
While I think there are interesting and important discussions to be had about how argument and critique in the Left is carried out, I don’t think it’s appropriate for you to lead them, Bomber. To start with, you’re a white cisgender able-bodied man without much nuanced theoretical or experential knowledge about how different oppressions genuinely divide the Left (as opposed to the people who merely point out existent divisions). Moreover, the fact that you’ve deleted several critical comments on this post shows that constructive criticism and free/open debate is not something you truly value, despite waxing lyrical about it on a routine basis. When it comes to rating leftist dialogue, your writing style is consistently histrionic, poorly structured and preaches to the choir. There are many people with greater journalistic skills and political knowledge who you’ve frequently pushed out of the way in order to hog the podium.
Terribly sorry you haven’t been posted, I was picking up my dear Daughter from kindy. Thank you for your words which help me prove the point I was making so spectacularly.
We here at TDB have worked hard to provide a platform for many women and minority voices that get swamped, to have such attempts here and on the other media I do written off with the middle class snobbery you have mustered is marvelous.
Cheers for your spite.
An incredibly offensive example, as I pointed it out in my comment several hours ago which didn’t make it past moderation.
I have two questions:
1) Could you let me know what about that comment was considered unpublishable so I can keep it in mind for the future?
2) Do you understand why someone might find it offensive for you to say that a woman who just helped organised a massive protest against rape & rape culture was ignoring the issue of rape culture because she posted some tweets you didn’t like?
We have a strict policy of not feeding trolls – the statement of comment moderation is clearly available on the blog.
I have little time to waste on people putting words into my mouth to damn me, I’m just too busy for such nonsense.
Which brings me to your second point.
What a load of crap, I was pointing out that the organizer was completely wrong about TDB not supporting the protest and was completely wrong about the blog (because it didn’t come through in time) and was completely wrong about us even receiving the press release.
It was an example of the points i raise in the post, your need to twist that into something else bores me.
Martyn…sorry pal, you have made the unfortunate mistake of engaging in an argument on the internet. Close to hell on Earth. If only we could get everyone sitting in a hall together having a discussion – I’d wager that the tone would be much different.
Good luck man.
Okay, so the answer is “because we thought it was trolling”. Thank you. And also, fuck you, because one of my VERY FIRST POINTS was about you refusing to believe good faith of anyone who disagrees with you.
You SPECIFICALLY referred to people ignoring the issue in favour of point scoring and SPECIFICALLY used one of the protest organisers as an example. Saying “that implies a protest organiser ignored the issue” is hardly putting words in your mouth. YOUR WORDS ARE RIGHT THERE IN THE POST.
I am so fucking furious right now. I tried to explain to you in good faith. Not high hopes, admittedly, but good faith. Sucks for you that you don’t like people being mean to you on the internet, because you are going to keep on alienating people and I hope you step on a goddamn lego, you self-righteous asshole.
/done.
Thank you for your patience awaiting a reply, I was picking up my darling Daughter from Kindy.
I have to admit yours alongside Anne R’s are my favorite posts for the day.
Okay, so the answer is “because we thought it was trolling”. Thank you. And also, fuck you, because one of my VERY FIRST POINTS was about you refusing to believe good faith of anyone who disagrees with you.
I love this because after shouting that you are asking me to consider your comments in good faith and attacking me for not receiving them in good faith, you then proceed to do exactly that by cramming words and insinuation into my mouth. A splendid home goal…
You SPECIFICALLY referred to people ignoring the issue in favour of point scoring and SPECIFICALLY used one of the protest organisers as an example. Saying “that implies a protest organiser ignored the issue” is hardly putting words in your mouth. YOUR WORDS ARE RIGHT THERE IN THE POST.
Not quite. The paragraph before the example is given is talking about how the left have descended into shouting past each other on the Roast Buster issue, I then point that out with the example I do where TDB is attacked for not publishing their press release, not publishing their blog and not supporting them.
I point out that we posted 4 blogs promoting the protest on top of the numerous blogs on the rape culture issue. I point out we never received the press release and I point out that the blog that was due to be posted wasn’t due to the writer not able to get their blog through to us.
Are you suggesting that I’m lying? That we did receive the press release? That we did have the blog but what – chose not to post it and are you suggesting we didn’t post 4 blogs promoting the protest?
I am so fucking furious right now. I tried to explain to you in good faith. Not high hopes, admittedly, but good faith. Sucks for you that you don’t like people being mean to you on the internet, because you are going to keep on alienating people and I hope you step on a goddamn lego, you self-righteous asshole.
Wow – I have disagreed with John Banks and called him a rotting political corpse, and I’ve said there needs to be a special place in hell for the way Key looks after the rich at the expense of the poor and I have called Paula Bennett a hypocrite but I’ve never wished for physical pain on the people I disagree with.
Thank you for your comments though – you seem to be sanctimonious enough to demand pain of an individual while telling yourself you have the moral high ground.
Thanks for dropping by
Speaking for myself (obviously I’m female), I like your blog and haven’t noticed any bad attitudes towards women. On the contrary so I have to come down on your side on this. And quite frankly I’m sick of this ganging up. .. The female bloggers that left sound like self righteous prima donas(sic).
This comments thread is only proving your point, Martyn – and yes, you get caught up in fighting your corner, but your point remains.
People have to make a decision about what is realistic. Visions of a sweeping green/anti-capitalist revolution – democratic or otherwise – just ain’t gonna happen no matter how good your intentions, how good your argument, because you will not have popular support – not until the people are being systematically rounded up and persecuted, and we’re several decades from that. Establishment contain and control is far too sophisticated – how was Occupy defeated? Frickin health bylaws.
I’m all for radical thought, but just keep your eyes on the real enemies. Bagging those who want to see Labour get back to power (the most realistic goal, surely) shouldn’t have to watch their back. It’s to everyone’s advantge to at least get the government eking back left to *the Centre* – as under Cunliffe. Any approach that lets us continue to veer out into Nat$iland is bad politics.
One thing we all need to do on the “left” is get over ourselves. Every little debate we have gets all over twitter, Facebook, blogs………. and becomes acrimonious. Really, Key is not going to win because some women mentioned this blog on twitter. He’s not going to win because you and Chris Trotter have different mates that you want to defend. Social media is not a stage for us to strut across, demonstrating our purity. It could be a very powerful organising tool. Let’s use it as one, not as a left wing gossip rag.
Martyn, the real reason that Key WILL win the next election is much more simple… “No” [sic.] Zealand does not exist and people vote mainly in their own selfish economic interests. The majority of “No” [sic.] Zealanders are homeowners. When this changes. (i.e. the majority of us are renting) then Key will be goneski and the “left” (hopefully of the militant neomarxist variety)will get in. The roastbusters sideshow has nothing to do with it, apart from exemplifying the dissolution of our society as “No” [sic.] Zealanders. Personally, I’d prefer a civil war
Hi BRYCE, I am with you brother, but it’s this such a surprise. Dog eat dog when things get tough. Plays right into the hands of JK and NZ INC. The MSM love this. Breathe deeply and keep right on to the end of the road. Kia Kaha
Yeah, I agree…I have the experience of being a rational , committed active member of an ever growing anti – John Key facebook page. I happened one day to suggest an alteration for strategic reasons to a pinned post….to cut to the guillotine, one admin person took exception to what I wrote and blocked me. I felt like I had been flat ting with a room full of fascists. Half the admins were facebook friends and they allowed me to be axed without any warning, after over a year of proactive following their rules…not being offensive and linking articles etc to msm… I live provincially and this forum was my way of reaching and gleaning, so called left perspectives…sadly one admin person whose Ego took precedence over the group just lashed out. The tragic part is I wasn’t a troll , conspiracy theorist…I just needed to connect and energise my political thought processes , that in turn seep back into my small networks…sorry to personalise this , but if folk set up forums for debate, then put ego aside , suspend disbelief and be open to a good ol verbal stoush….it is very much a working class attribute which white middle class folk seem
allergic to…
Please accept a serenade from me on my teeny tiny weeny whiny violin.
Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear.
Seriously I just wish all the middle class people would just fuck off and leave left politics to working class people. All the middle class do is go on about identity politics and start fights on their blogs. Please just fuck off. We don’t need you and we don’t want you. And when the going gets tough and we do need you? You are never fucking there.
I love it how these feminists got manipulated by Hooton into turning their rage against Willie and JT not the police or Key. It’s like how they get more upset about Russell Brand and Julian Assange than they do about US torture or the mass working-class suicides caused by unemployment and the current crisis.
And then they run around being like “check your privilege”. Just please fuck off.
I am also weary of middle class tossers be they man woman or beast. We can unite around some things as it should be but extended agonising over people’s favoured sector group diverts from the main game–keeping the Key gang from office next year.
It is not compulsory to read TDB or comment, so luvvies if Bomber gives you the vapours feel free to go elsewhere just as some of us totally ignore kiwiblog, Whalespew and Trade me.
Yes but how will you know what box to tick unless we teach you what all the squiggles next them mean?
Problem for the left is policy. That’s where it all falls down we are so scared of frightening off “Middle NZ” with well argued socialist positions. We forget that the biggest silent majority (those who won’t vote) are looking for a movement that deals with their reality. These are the one’s who care not about asset sales to such a large degree as they will never be able to buy any.
Feeding families, heating damp homes and dealing with the unemployment and slave wages and conditions is where they are at. The left is not representing these peoples problems.
When it comes to left unity on polices we become too academic sitting around arguing and slagging off each other.
The people are not interested in what National is about they are not stupid they know. What they don’t know is what the left intends to do for them. The ones who think the”housing bubble” is a problem so far removed it is on another planet.
Agreed we pussy foot around the edges so as not to frighten the horses, we need big ideas and big policies out there now.
Hey BB,
You ain’t perfect but you are an inspiration. The left eating itself is so dumb but very apt. We must hang together folks, or we’ll hang separately.
The future lies ahead!
The aesthetic left. Intriguing. The thing is, I actually agree with the sentiment that the left should band together, they should do so ion a manner that respects everyone, but ultimately unity is necessary on some level.
However, I actually think the fauxgans and the blogosphere 5000 actually stand in the way of that. This comments section illustrates this.
Unions didn’t die. They were murdered.
In actual FACT. It’s not about Left vs Right anymore.
WAKE UP TO REALITY
Get up to Date
THE NEW REALITY IS GLOBAL.
It is that now BIG BUSINESS (Trans national Corporations- or rather their owners RULE globally)
Rule All of Us. Call the shots. Determine all future policy.( And have been for a long time now.)
They hold all the Power /Rule us. -( as opposed to our cherished belief in “democracy” and freedom.)
People just can’t seem to come to grips with the fact that, no matter who you vote for, no real changes & improvements come by.
It’s because “voting” is fake, but The public, easily deluded, maintain a false belief in it, even though the game changed long ago!
(REFER TO RUSSELL BRAND’s interview with Paxman: He tells it like it is.)
You have noticed how Life in NZ is NOT as it should be? Things going awfully WRONG/UNJUST/OUT OF BALANCE/No PRINCIPLES/ETHICS…ETC?
Well that’s the EVIDENCE.
In UK, SAME symptoms. All the same issues. All the same problems, everything.
Why don’t you read this Guardian article recently, says it all-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/business-rules-lobbying-corporate-interests
It would be NO surprise if Key + National got in , because the agenda coming from outside NZ is already SET.
Even if Labour got in, you will discover no reversals of the things that we know shouldn’t be happening.
And meanwhile, if John Key were to abscond, you better know that there is another to take his place- ie Simon Bridges, who, few people realise, has been /is being groomed to be a future “leader” along the same lines.
( “same lines” = set agenda= more of the same but even worse.)
Dear oh dear oh dear!
Are you sure you don’t mean the “ascetic” left of Labour?
Aesthetic (adj): Concerned with beauty, artistic impact, or appearance.
Ascetic (adj): Of or relating to ascetics; characterized by rigorous self-denial or self-discipline; austere; abstinent; involving a withholding of physical pleasure.
Whatever the two/three groups you’ve identified might say, you have a much bigger heart as a blogger, which you wear on your sleeve, which is a pretty sound qualification in your field.
Although I usually agree with the general thrust of their writing, I think it might help TDB to be free of their self-righteousness, and their general VOLUME, hyper-sensitivity to being challenged, and tendency towards FUCKING profanity. There’s always The Standard, after all.
Those who resort to such tactics probably think, the end justifies the means.
When you are in a debate with someone, and you know your argument doesn’t stack up, or is even untrue, but to admit it would be inimical to the furtherance of the interests of the particular Left sect of your choice, it is tempting to, rather than address the substantive issues raised, resort instead to bullying tactics like veiled death threats, like character assassination, like insinuating that your opponent is a police spy, like comparing them to Joseph Goebbels, but this is OK, because in your mind, “the ends justifies the means”.
I would like to say with out mentioning names, that those who resort to such tactics might like to consider that, ‘rotten means, usually mean rotten ends’.
And play the ball, and not the person.
For example it is blatantly untrue that the Green Party and the Labour Party have the same views on Deep Sea Oil, or New Coal Mines.
“No New Coal Mines” is Green Party official policy.[i]
Whereas the Labour Party support a new, (and the largest ever in New Zealand’s history), coal mine on the Denniston Plateau.[ii]
The same with Deep Sea Oil. The Greens (and Mana), openly oppose it.[iii] Labour (quietly), supports it.[iv]
How does this square with Lynn Prentice conflating this into “Labour and the Greens views are remarkably the same”?
It doesn’t. Hence the need to resort to false accusations, character assassination, and ultimately censorship.
Lynn tries to make out that the Green and Labour’s policies are ‘remarkably the same’ because he doesn’t want people to know that Labour’s real practical reaction to climate change is more ‘remarkably the same as National’s’*. Lynn knows he can’t defend this. Lynn probably also knows that this stance is unpopular with the majority of the voting public. So best to silence any debate.
*(However in late news. Labour’s Moana MacKay seems to breaking away from the party line on climate change, at least on deep sea oil drilling.[v] (And she is not the only one.)[vi] This is to be encouraged and applauded. I imagine this took a lot of courage.)
[i]http://www.tv3.co.nz/3RD-DEGREE-The-Vote-Wednesday-November-6-2013/tabid/3692/articleID/96249/MCat/3304/Default.aspx
“When it comes to coal mining, our policy is no new mines because clearly from a climate point of view it is completely unsustainable.” Russell Norman, The Vote at 23:30 minutes.
[ii] Though they won’t say it openly. However I defy anyone to say that Labour don’t support the newest and biggest coal mine in New Zealand’s history. In fact I would be delighted to be proved wrong.
[iii] http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/the-speeches-of-catherine-delahuny-and-hone-harawira/
[iv] http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11144470
Labour’s energy and resources spokesperson, David Shearer, said his party did not rule out deep-sea drilling but expected that any companies making applications would have to be “world class” and demonstrate they had robust safeguards in place.
[v] https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/11/20/ok-lets-make-offshore-oil-and-gas-exploration-about-the-science-and-not-emotion/
“…..a true commitment to evidence based policy making means not being scared to have a robust public debate.” Moana MacKey
[vi] Maryann Street, only mildly, and so far only ( when overseas) has also begun to break the party line. Maryann Street speaking on Australian radio, said; “On a scale of One to Ten, public concern about climate change, has risen from three and four amongst New Zealanders, to currently tracking around seven or eight.”
[…] My calls for some type of peace by pointing out the feral descent into twitter bullying on the left was met with a tsunami of abuse by the Emerald Stormtroopers and aesthetic left of Labour making Wellington’s little brother complex look absolutely positively passive aggressive. […]
Comments are closed.